Mr. Rigby expreffed a wifh, 'that, in Mr. Arden [late Solicitor General] the prefent fituation of the Houfe, when urged the neceffity of pronouncing m fo many members were on the eve of vaopinion in what light fhips, coming from cating their feats, and not one cabinet America to British ports, were to be conminifter prefent, the learned Lord would fidered, that he conteft might not be left not prefs the bufinefs for a few days; for A to custom-house officers and lawyers to if it fhould go on in their absence, he decide. There was great delicacy in the could not fee how they could decide, in cafe, and therefore he wifhed the legisla their judicial capacity, upon evidence ture to fay whether American fhips were they had not heard. He thought the to be treated as foreign fhips, as British prefence of Lord Chief Juftice North, Ships, or as American fhips were treated Lord Chief Justice Fox, and Lord Chief before the war. Justice Cavendish, as important to the B defendant here, as the prefence of Lord Chief Juftice Mansfield, Mr. Juftice Buller, or any other chief or puifne judge, in their own Courts of Westminster-Hall.

Mr. Fox neither approved of receiving them as foreign fhips, nor as American ships were received before the war. And as they could not be confidered as British fhips, he faw no way of getting rid of the Sir Tho. Rumbold then entered fully difficulty but by fuffering the doubts into the cafe, and candidly ftated the inftarted by the learned gentleman to rejury it would be to him to proceed in fo main untouched for the prefent, and not C thin a Houfe. faving a word on the fubject of clearing them away.

Sir Adam Ferguson was for refting the matter on the opinion of the counsel for the defendant, which was for adjourning the farther proceeding on the bill to that day fevennight.

April 4. Sir G. Young moved for leave to bring D in the Mutiny Bill, which was agreed to unanimously.

Mr. W. Pitt gave notice that on the 7th of May he would fubmit to the Houfe a propofition for reforming the ftate of reprefentation in that Houfe; and moved a call of the Houfe on the 6th, which paffed without oppofition.

April 9.

Mr. Sec. Fox moved the further confideration of the American Trade Bill to be adjourned for three weeks. He thought the principal objects of the bill might be obtained by way of negociation; and he never wifhed to fee that introduced into a bill which might be as well done without it.

Mr. W. Pitt heartily wished the nego. ciation in queftion might anfwer the object as fully as the Hon. Gent. expected; but for his part, when he recollected the vast variety of objects that were to be taken into confideration, he owned he was not quite fo fanguine in his hopes as the Rt. Hon. Gent. He was therefore of opinion that it was better to pafs a temporary act, adapted to the necellity of the moment, than to wait the conclufion of a permanent treaty. However, if the Rt. Hon. Gent. thought himself warranted in what he propofed, he (for one) fhould be extremely glad to lend his affiflance, and to give the Minifters their merited share of applaufe.

E

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Mr. Eyre was for paffing an immediate law for opening the trade with America on liberal terms; but with an exception to their fhips bringing over the produce of our Weflern 1flands. In that cafe be

was perfuaded America would pafs a law for making the advantages reciprocal.-He had drawn up, he faid, the heads of a bill for that purpose, and read them.'

Mr. D. Hartley, though he did not approve of that juft read, was for a new bill, rather than that before the Houfe.

Mr. Fox was of the fame opinion, and moved for leave to bring in a bill for reftoring the freedom of trade with America.

Mr. Hartley thought fuch a bill would anfwer no end, as it would only enable us to trade with the Americans, but not the Americans with us. He therefore fubmitted whether the word of would not stand better than the word with.

Mr. Fox withdrew his motion, with intent to renew it again on a future day. April 11.

Mr. Sec. Fax prefented a Bill for repealing the prohibitory Acts respecting America. 3

Mr. Jenkinson defired to know by what ; bill or bills this was to be followed, as of itself it would be totally inadequate to the end of opening an intercourfe with America.

Mr. For owned the force of Mr. Jenkinton's obfervation, and propoted to follow that now prefented with another for repealing the act that impofed a necellity on the fhips, coming froin America, of being provided with certificates from American governors, and of giving bonds

од

on clearing out from British ports, and fhewing their manifelts. Even thefe he propofed as no otherwife fufficient for opening the intercourfe, than only to remove preliminary obftacles; without which the intercourfe could not be reftored. The treaty might do the reft.

merce, but could not open or infure any mutuality, he therefore would propofe a fmall alteration in the title of the bill, "to "authorife bis Majefty, for a time to be “limited, to make' such farther regulaA "tions as may be found proper and expe"dient." The amendment was agreed to, and the bill paffed accordingly. April 14.

Mr. W. Pitt admitted the propriety of repealing the Prohibitory Acts, though, by acknowledging the independence of America, the force of thofe afts was virtually done away. But he contended, that the bills now offered could not of B themselves anfwer the purpose of eftablifhing a free intercourse.

Mr. Arden faid a few words to the fame purpose; however, the first bill went into committee; the blanks were filled up without debate; and the Houle was refumed, and proceeded to other bufinefs.

Gov. Johnfione rofe, and put two queftions to Minifters; one was, Whether any dispatches had been fent by fea to the Eaft Indies with news of the peace? the other, Did Minifters intend to publish any of the accounts lately received from thence? Top these questions,

Mr. Fox answered dubiously, He knew not what former Minifters had done refpecting the frit question. And as to the fecond, that fo much of the difpatches on great and public occafions ought, and would be made public, as was confiftent with the public good.

Mr. Fox then moved his fecond bill, on which a fhort debate took place.

Mr. Jenkinson admitted, that the most obvious way of establishing an intercourfe with America was the removal of impediments that flood in the way of carrying it on. But he was not clear whether the evil would not be greater, that would refult, than the advantage propofed to be reaped by it. The danger which he fore faw was, leaving fuch an opening as that fhips, affuming the name of American, might convey uncultomed goods to every part of the kingdom, and fupply the ports with many articles, paying little or no duty.

Mr. Eden obferved, that the House feemed unanimous as to the object in view; that is, by liberal means, to gain as great a fhare of the American commerce as could be obtained without im minent danger to the naval ftrength of Great Britain. And it feemed to be the fenfe of the majority rather to found the regulating acts upon the treaty to be concluded, than to anticipate all the grounds of treating by parliamentary interference, which might indeed bind our own com

Lieut. Gen. Boyd's letter of thanks to the Houfe was read. (See p. 105.)

Lord Advocate moved for leave to bring. in a bil! for the better regulation of the government in India. He touched upon the general heads or outlines of his bill. Firft, the Gov. Gen. of Bengal to have a controuling power over his council and all the inferior governments in India. 2d, The fub-governors to have a negative Cin their refpective councils till the fenfe of the Gov. Gen. fhould be known. 3d, The Zemindaries to hold their lands fo long as they performed the conditions of their tenures. And 4th, That the con teft between the Rajah of Tanjore and the Nabob of Arcot fhould finally deter mine, and their refpective claims be af certained and adjufted. He then stated the neceffity of recalling Mr. Haftings, and appointing a new Gov. Gen. Here he pronounced a long and laboured panegyric on Earl Cornwallis, who, he faid, was the only man in the world that was fit to take the fupreme command of India upon himfelf. E Gov. Johnstone, on the other hand, was no lefs lavish in praife of Mr. Haflings, who had been the falvation of that country, and who had juft concluded a peace with the Mahrattas, which alone was fufficient to immortalize his name,

F

Sir Henry Fletcher obferved, that, in a correfpondence between Sir Eyre Conte and Hyder Ally, the latter had declared that the powers under which that peace was concluded were forged,

Lord North rofe to reply to the queftions put by Gov. Johnstone refpecting the neceffary difpatches to be fent to In Gdia, and anfwered them fatisfactorily.

Mr. Burke differed from the learned Lord in opinion refpe&ting the fupreme powers to be granted to the Gov. Gen.; and thought that high office might be as well filled by a perfon of middle rank, acquainted with bufinefs, as with the noble perfon fo ftrongly recommended, againft whofe abilities, however, there could be nothing to object.

Some flight altercations paffed; the queftion was put, and leave was given to bring in the bill.

in negociation. It was not for one party to establish a feparate fyftem, while the other party was yet a ftranger to its tendency. It was for that reafon that he wifhed difcretionary powers might be A given to the King for a limited time.However, if the Houfe were fo difpofed, and his rt. hon. friend [Mr. F.] was prepared to bring forward any detailed plan of commerce, he was ready (for one) to allot his time and attention to the difcuf fion of it. An order was then made for B committing the bill on Thursday.

The Houfe then proceeded on Sir Tho mas Rumbold's business.

April 16.

Lord Sheffield poke most ably on the fubject. He owned, that when the bufinefs was firft agitated, he faw no impropriety in leaving the particulars to negociation, and, in the mean time, to give certain powers to the King in council; but, on hearing the various opinions that had been urged in the courfe of the debates upon it, he could not help expreffing his apprehenfions, The Right Hon. Gent. who brought forward the bill, he' faw, was for confidering the subjects of the United States as British fubjects for the prefent, at the fame time avowing they would not be put upon fo good a footing by treaty. This he could by no means approve. Being once placed on advantageous ground, it would not be eafy to difplace them. At all events, it would be a very difficult bufinefs. And he was not for trufting it to the fpeculative whim of any individual. Now was the time for the Houfe to mark out the principle on which the treaty fhould proceed. Ministers should be made to underftand that the carrying trade was notD to be given up; that the principle of the Navigation Act was to be kept entire ; Mr. W. Pitt rofe again, and charged and that they muft preferve to the re- Minifters with neglecting an application maining dominions of Great Britain the which had been made on the 7th inft. exclufive trade to the Weft India Iflands. from four capital bankers concerned in The Navigation Act gave us the trade of the laft loan, who offered to bid for this, the world. The prefervation of that act E by which much better terms might have fhould be the teft of the abilities of the been obtained for the public; and with new Minifters. The late peace, in com- referve, of a large fize, for ministerial alparifon to it, was nothing. The falvation lotments. or ruin of this country depended upon it. Lord J. Cavendish acknowledged the Mr. Jenkinson was against giving new receipt of a letter on that day, which powers to the King unlefs a provifo fhould might be the letter alluded to by the be added to prevent any alterations in the F Right Hon. Gent.; but that letter menduties. tioned no specific terms; and he could liften to no offer, as matters were then circumftanced, but fuch as comprised the whole, or the greater part. The referve he made was for the purposes of doing juftice to the whole mercantile line, that every banking-houfe might fhare a part, Gas well thofe who were not contractors as those who were.

Lord J. Cavendish rofe, to open the budget, of which we have already given as ample an account as was neceffary for the information of the publick; but, as Cfome facts came out in the courfe of the debate upon it, that did not particularly connect with it, but which it will be matter of curiofity hereafter to refer to, we fhall endeavour to collect a general view of the whole into as narrow a com pafs as is confiftent with clearness and impartiality. We have already mentioned Mr. W. Pitt's objections and Lord J. Cavendish's answer. (See p. 361.)

Gov. Johnftone was for leaving the regulations necellary to be made to the cabinet minifters.

Mr. Sec. For did not with any new powers to be given to the Crown; and it was only in compliance with what appeared to be the fenfe of the Houfe, that the amendment was admitted.

Mr. Eden acknowledged the propriety of the bill, fo far as it went; but much more was to be done; the export of teas must be arranged; the drawbacks fettled; the great question concerning the aliens duty decided; the nature and extent of the intercourse with the loyal Colonies, and with the Weft India Iflands, and various doubts, refolved: thefe were knotty points, that must be jointly difcuffed

Mr. Martin declared, that he had received notice from the noble Lord, that the houfe with which he was connected fhould be confidered in the diftribution of the loan; but that he had returned for Hanfwer, That as to himself, as a member of parliament, he difclaimed all idea of accepting any part of the loan; but he did not mean, by that, to exclude his partners from any profit they might make

of

of a part of it in the regular courfe of bufinefs. At the fame time he called GOD to witness, that they fhould fhare it among themselves, for he would have nothing to do with it. But, he faid, one thing he would have to do with, and that was, to unite with any body of men who should have weight enough to bring to punishment the noble Lord in the blue ribbon, who had brought this country to the brink of ruin.

Mr. Fox obferved, that the profecution in which the Hon. Gent. was fo ready to join was a matter not very likely to take place; but it was no bad proof of the impartiality with which the loan had been diftributed, that, notwithstanding the known fentiments of the Hon. Gent. the fame fum had been given to the House as had been intended before the letter was written. Mr. Fox then adverted to what the Right Hon. Gent. [Mr. W. Pitt] had faid of the terms: he was aftonifhed to hear him find fault with terms which he himself had made neceffary. The Rt. Hon. Gent. had remained in office long after he declared he would quit it. It was furely his duty to have made the loan, or fuffered another to have made it a month fooner. He begged leave to remind the Right Hon. Gent. of the different conduct of his predeceffor in that office [Ld North], who, the very moment previous to his refignation, moved the loan, and executed all the duties of Chancellor of the Exchequer with the fame alacrity as if his continuance in office had been established.

Mr. W. Pitt rofe in reply. His only reason for holding the feals of his office fo long after thofe with whom he acted had refigned, was from a point of honour, that the bufinefs of the nation might not be at a ftand till another Chancellor was appointed. He denied that any blame was imputable to him, nor fhould an attack of that kind fo provoke him, or put him fo far off his guard, as to make him lofe fight of the object he had in view, the fair difcuffion of the terms of the loan. He begged, therefore, the noble Lord to recollect hinfelf, and to fay in direct terms, whether he had or had not received a letter figned by four perfons of refponfibility, offering to take the loan on fuch terms, that thofe avbo bid lower must make a bargain for the public exceedingly advantageous indeed?

Lord John Cavendish, in reply, faid, if he recollected rightly, he received the letter alluded to but three days before it

was neceffary to conclude the bargain; but, not fufpecting it would ever become the fubject of difcuffion, he had taken no particular notice of the fact. It cer Atainly advised a competition, and mentioned four names as one fet; but how was he to get other perfons to form them. felves into fets who were willing to oppofe moneyed men of fo much power and opulence? He had endeavoured to do the beft he could; and, with refpect to the terms being too high, he muft infift upg on it, that the fhortness of the time in which he had to make them was the caufe, and the late miniftry were folely to blame for that circumftance.

Mr. Pitt acknowledged that he had kept the feals after he had declared he no longer confidered himself as a minister, from motives of delicacy, which he be Elieved the Houfe would give him credit for; but, that it would have been proper for him to have moved the loan, under fuch circumftances, no man in his fenfes could fuppofe. He felt little pain, he faid, in having his conduct contrafted with that of the noble Lord, his prede Dceffor in office. That noble Lord had a few weeks ago faid, that on the 20th of February, 1782, he received a mortal wound, but that he had lingered in office fome time longer; and, while he fo lingered, he had recourse to that expedient which had often before cured wounds of the like kind, apparently mor Ctal-a loan. He certainly had not had recourse to any fuch expedient; and, if he was to blame, he fhould willingly meet the cenfure due to him on that ac count.

Sir Grey Cooper, in the abfence of Lord North, rofe in his defence. He defired F the Right Hon. Gent. to recollect, that the loan of last year was a close loan, and not an open one, confequently, the no ble Lord could make no friends by it. He added, that Lord North had moved his taxes too, and furely he would not fay, that moving unpopular taxes was the best means of fecuring a continuance in office. He took notice of the Right Hon. Gentleman's farcaftic turn, and how ill it became him. If he had no better weapons, he faid, to combat his adverfaries, he feared he would never be able to give a mortal wound to any of them.

H Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox rofe feveral times. They differed on the mode of borrowing. In the King's fpeech it had been recommended fo to conduct the future loans, as to promote the means

of

of its gradual redemption by a fixed courfe of payment.

Mr. Fox juftified the mode that had been purfued of borrowing money upon an addition to funds already eftablished, rather than by funds redeemable in a new

wav.

Mr. Pitt faid, Mr. Fox's reafoning on borrowing money to increafe the capital, rather than with a view to redeem the principal, was the reafoning of a gambler and gamefter, who borrows defperately without any thought ever to pay.

Mr. Fox replied, the very reverfe of the Rt. Hon. Gent.'s propofition was the fact. To borrow at high intereft, with a view fpeechly to pay off the debt, was in the true ftyle of a political gambler, who never yet completed, and he would venture to fay never could complete, what he had projected. Borrowing by annuity, he would ever maintain, was the proper mode for Government to borrow, where the borrower held the option to continue the annuity or pay off the principal, as beft fuited his convenience.

Mr. Hufey contended, notwithstanding what the Rt. Hon. Secretary had ftated, that borrowing the money at 5 per cent. redeemable in ten years, would have been the mott eligible way of borrowing.

Mr. Fox faid, the fhort answer to the Hon. Gent. was, that no loan at 5 per cent. could be had.

At length the refolution paffed the committee, and was ordered to be report ed.

April 17.

Mr. Speaker acquainted the Houfe,

that he had received letters from Gen.

Eliott, and Maj. Gen. de la Motte, in return to the thanks of the Houfe; fee p. 105. The letters were read, and ordered to be entered in the Journals of the Houfe.

Mr. Orde brought up the report of the committee on the loan.

from the station he held it might be fuppofid he knew fomething of the matter, he could affure the Houfe, that the lift could not be a greater novelty to any member in it than it was to him. In the A courfe of the debate in the committee, more than one fpeaker had chofen to throw out hints of making a referve for minifterial purpofes. The Right Hon. Gent. who had chofen to ftand forth as the leader of the oppofition against the loan, had faid, If the noble Lord would say be alone made the diftribution, and if it had been folely the act of the noble Lord, with other expreffions of a fort that tended to convey a fufpicion of the improper interference of other perfons; it could not, therefore, but give him the moft folid fatisfaction to hear a motion made for a refolution which muft necellarily carry Cwith it incontrovertible evidence, completely to acquit not only the noble Lord at the head of the Exchequer, but every other perfon about the Treasury.

The motion paffed without oppofition, the report was approved, and the Houfe proceeded on other bufinefs.

The order of the day being read for Dgoing into a committee on the report of the petition of the East India Company (fee p. 341);

Sir Henry Fletcher rofe, and, having generally stated the fituation of the Company, moved, that leave be given to bring in a bill to indemnify the E. I. Company from all loffes in refpect to their not Emaking regular payment of certain fums due to the public; and to allow further time for fuch payment; and also to enable the Company to borrow a certain. fum, and to make a dividend of 4 per cent. to the proprietors at Midfummer, 1783.

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Gen. Smith faid, he felt himfe!f fome. what embarraffed between the first part of the motion and the last; but fhould referve what he had to fav till the bill fhould come into the regular course of difcuffion.

Mr. Whitbread, who was not prefent at the former debate, blamed the terms of the loan. Had it been put up at pub- Gov. Johnflone thought the Hon. Gelic auction, he was fure per cent. at neral not quite confiftent when he feemleaft might have been faved to the pub-Ged to difapprove of the Company's horlic, and he hoped it was not too late to reconfider the matter. No anfwer was

made.

Mr. Rolle moved for a copy of the lift of fubfcribers.

rowing 500,ocol. The Governor faid, the Company had been worfe used by Parliament than the fubjects of any country had ever experienced. The terrors of Parliament had long been held over them, Mr. Frederick Montagu feconded the to enforce oppreffion and injuftice. The motion; and it was afterwards laid be-motion was agreed to. Adjourned to fore the House.

April 23.

The American trade-bill was proceed..

Mr. Sheridan approved the motion, protesting, at the fame time, that though ed on.