Chanc. Pitt thought it not a little furprifing, that a Bill that had been loudly and repeatedly called for from every part of the Houfe, should be rejected before it came in committee. The Hon. Gent. that fpoke laft, who on all occafions is ready to give his opinion on the politics of the times, had called for fome Member to be refponfible for the Bill. But did not, the Hon. Gent. know that, when a Bill had once paffed into a law, the Hon. Gent. was himself as refponfible for the ope ration of it as the Minifter that brought it in? Where the urgency of affairs made a new law neceflary, it was the duty of Minifiers to take proper in furvive. There was one other clause in would cover all the advantages that ever the faid Bill which he could not help ob- would be reaped from it by this Country. jecting to, and that was, where the Ame- The objections he had to offer, on a curricans, now become a foreign State, are A fory review of it, he should referve till admitted to all the privileges of British it came into the committee. But he hoped fubjects. How was the King hereafter it would never come there ill fome perfon to make treaties with the European Pow- in a long gown could be found to adopt ers who claim to be treated as the it as his, and bring with him fome most favoured nations? Or was Parlia- coadjutors who would consent to stand ment prepared to confent to the admif- fponfors. fion of all the world as British subjects? He added, that all that had been named B were trifling to what were ftill to be apprehended. It had been easy to forefee that American Independence muft tend to great convulfions in our commerce, the emigration of manufacturers, the lofs of feamen, and all the evils in cident to a declining country. The hour of calamity was now come. The United States muft have infinite advantages, from which our European traders and loyal Colonies muft for ever be excluded. From their proximity of fituation, cheapnefs of labour, and frequency of vovages, they muft in a courfe of years poffels themfelves of the carrying trade.Dformation, and to bring in a Bill adapted Thus the kingdom muft gradually lofe to the nature of the exigency. He had its great nurfery of feamen, and all the done fo; and it refted in the Houfe to means of manning fhips in times of emer- adopt or reject, to alter, amend, or mogency, and thus decline and languish dify it, according as the Houfe should fee during peace, and be helpless and de- fit. For himself, he was little tenacious pendent during war. He obferved, that of the claufes in the Bill. Such a Bill if fo many objections were obvious to a was wanting, and it refted now wholly mere individual, it might be presumed E with the Houfe to fupply it. that there were many more that would Mr. Burke placed all the mischiefs that not escape the penetration of millions had happened or could happen from the interested in ufing this Bill against all want of fuch a Bill on the shoulders of the nearest and deareft concerns of thefe Minifters, who, during a feven months Kingdoms. And now, he faid, having negociation with the American Commifftated fome objections to the Bill, it fioners, had never faid a word about might be expected that he should fug-regulating commerce. To this the geft fome better plan for opening the F prefent embarrailments were owing. intercourfe. To that he profetfed himfelf When it was understood that Mr. unequal. But ftill, if he might hazard Ofwald was chofen as a negociator, an opinion, it would be merely that the every one concluded, that it was for a Prohibitory Ads should be repealed; and fyftematical establishinent of commerce. that the King in Council might be vefted Nobody could have imagined that, when with power for fix months, to fufpend the noble Lord then at the head of Adfrom time to time, as he fhould fee miniftration had the most experienced caufe, fuch laws as fhould be found geographers in Europe at hand, meanto ftand in the way of an amicable inter- ing Mr. Holdsworth, Member for Dartcourfe. This would obviate every ob- mouth, and Mr. Brett, he would have jection refpecling Ireland; the negoci- pitched upon a merchant to conclude a ation might in the mean time go on; geographical treaty. The two negociand a reciprocity of advantages might ators having paffed feven months without be made the ground-work of a perma- having done any thing for commerce, nent treaty in the end. H put him in mind of two Irifhmen; one of them being afked what he was doing, anfwered, nothing, the other, being alked the fame queftion, exclaimed, I am helping him. A Right Hon. Gentleman, Capt. J. Luttrell was fo fully perfuadea of the inutility of the Bill, that, it it palled in the way it was now offered, the theet which contained the claufes G who rendered it neceffary that it fhould go to a Committee. He was for introducing as little new law as pothble into the Bill. He had been in America, who had displayed an uncommon degree of commercial knowledge [Mr Eden], was afraid that we fhould lofe our manufactures by the emigration of our artificers, and the exportation of our Mr. Hamet was partly of the fame working tools; as to the latter, it was opinion. He made a great difference beone of the puerilities of our laws to for- tween repealing old ufelefs laws, and bid the exportation of manufacturing A framing new ones. He difapproved of tools. We might as well attempt to motions in that, houfe relative to the prevent the making of hay in America trade with America, as he was of opiby forbidding the exportation of icythes. nion the regulations neceffary to be With refpect to the emigration of our made were rather fubjects of private artificers, he could' fee no poffible way to negociation, on the footing of reciprocal prevent it. Before the war, it was well advantages, than of public and general B known, that more than 8000 perfons emi-difcuffion. grated annually from the North of Ire land, and yet there never was a linen manufactory fet up in America. The reafon was obvious. The cheapnefs of land made every one a freeholder; and none thought of labour who went with the view of commencing gentlemen. It would be long, very long indeed, before America would think of rivalling us in manufactures. He differed with the fame Hon. Gentleman in other refpects, and was not for treating Amcrican fubjects as aliens, but rather asD fellow fubjects as far as we could; and he would rather establish his regulations by an improvement of the old commerciat fyftem, than by introducing a new one. He would have all Prohibitory A&ts repealed, and leave the American veffels in all refpects as they were before E in point of trade. ke faid, and was certain that by wife meafures we might recover our trade, and advantages equal to thofe of the times when we were fellow-fubjects, without the expence attending their being a part of the fame empire. The Lord Mayor urged the neceffity of opening the trade in fome fhape or other speedily, or lofing it for ever. The Houfe then refolved itself into Committee on the Bill, and proceeded to examine the claufes; to every one of which, objections were started. Capt. Luttrell expreffed a wish that the Committee might adjourn, report progrefs, and beg leave to fit again, which was complied with. March 10. Lord Newhaven noved, that there bé laid before the Houfe copies of the laft difpatches from Sir Guy Carleton, relaSol Gen. (Arden) did not think, when tive to the ftate of negociation between he was called into his Majesty's fervice, him and the Congrefs, on the fubject of that he was to take upon him refponfi the Loyalifts; but being told, by Mr. bility for commercial fyftems with which Ord, how improper it would be to agihe was totally unacquainted. All the tate fuch a queftion when there was no concern he had in framing the Bill was, F Minifter, he withdrew his motion for in adapting fuck principles as were fug the prefent. And the order of the day, gefted to him, to the law as it flood in for the Houfe to go into a committee of the various ftatures that had relation to fupply, being read, and a motion made the object of the Bill. He had been fully for the Speaker to leave the chair, aware of the danger of throwing the carrying trade into the hands of America; and it would be found, that tho'Gthat the Cathier and Accomptant of the America had an advantage given het by the Bill on her importations, he had that advantage balanced by the impofts laid on her exports. He fhewed the utter impoffibility of preventing the Americans from trading to the Weft Indies, and the folly of endeavouring to ingrofs a trade, which by its magnitude was too unweildy to be confined. Mr. For thought the bill an infraction of our treaty with Ruffia, and pointed out many imperfections which Mr. Huffey rofe, to enquire into the truth of a report current without doors, Pay-Office had been difmiffed in confequence of fome difcoveries made by the Board of Treafury to the Pay-mafter General. If the fact was true, he begged to know if the minutes of the Board of Treafury might not with propriety be laid before the Houfe. Chane. Pitt frankly owned that the fact was as flated, and that he had not the leaft objection whatever against laying the minutes in queftion before the Houle.. Mr. Huey was going to make a mo tion for the purpose, when the Speaker reminded him that there was already a motion before the Houfe, which must be firft difmifled. the estimates laid before Parliament. Mr. Courtney allowed the report to be drawn up in a masterly manner; he acknowledged likewife that the vigilance, The Houfe accordingly went into A perfeverance, and activity of the noble committee, to which a report was re- Duke, in watching public officers and ferred, figned" Richmond," a part of Minifters too, deferved great praife; which, fo far as relates to the estimate in but at the fame time maintained, that the quettion, is here added by way of note*. report wanted two requifites, fairness Mr. Kenrick then rofe, and defired, and candourt, to make it compleat. He before the Speaker left the chair, to make then entered into an examination of the a few obfervations on the report of the feveral articles in which favings had Board of Ordnance. Mr. Kenrick ac- B been made, and accounted for them, if cordingly went into a train of reafoning not to the fatisfaction of the Houfe, yet tending to juftify the measures of the in a plaufible train of reafoning which it. preceding board, though no charge was not eafy to refute. The noble Duke whatever had been brought against it. and the noble Lord [Townfhend] who preceded him had each, he said, acted according to the circumftances of the times; the latter therefore had been unCder the neceflity of treating for the articles he wanted, in time of war, at the war prices; while the former was enabled by the conclufion of the war to make better terms, and to purchafe at peace prices. If the noble Lord had been the fucceffor and the noble Duke the predeceffor at the DBoard, the contracts would in all probability have been nearly the fame as the Houfe had found them; and as there was no merit in having made peace contracts in time of peace, there could be no demerit in having made war contracts, in time of war, at war prices. Capt. Minchin, on the contrary, was very fevere on the lucrative contracts made by that board; and was lavish in praifes of the noble Duke, who had fet a pattern which ought to be followed in all "In this report it is earnelly hoped that provifion will be made for difcharging, in fome certain period, the debt of the ordnance. When that is done, all future bargains may be made with ready money, which has been found by experience to pro dace, in many inftances, a faving of from 20 to 30 per cent. in the following articles: Savings made under the Disadvantages of the prefent mode of Payment. The new contract for horses, reduced from 15. gd. to 15. per day per horse. Copper hoops reduced from 135l. 6s. 8d. to 1021. per ton. Shot from 111. 15s. to rol. 6s. per ton. Match from 231. to 161 55. per ton. Powder barrels, whole, from 35. 9d. to 35. 2d. each. Ditto half, from 2s. 6d. to 25. 24. each. Purbeck flone from Ics. 9d. to Ios. 8d. per ton; to be paid in fix months. Sand bags buthel, from 84. 4 to 7d each. Small arms (Dutch) from 11. s. 6d. to 11. 15. each; to be paid in fix months. Brafs-work for mufkets from 15. 2d. to 15. d. each per lb. Wheel-barrows from 145. to 11s. 6d. each, Salt petre from. 11). to 721. 75. per ton. Shells, 13 and 10 inches, from 131. 155. to 121 65. per doz. Ditto 8 inch from 141. to 121. 6s. per doz. per cwt, The favings on the above articles, fays the report, mult depend on their demand; and, according to that of the last three years, would have amounted 00 an average to 95,330l. annually." RICHMOND. Signed, E F G To prove that the Hon. Gent. did not affert this without fome ground to bear him out, he inftanced the price of powder barrels (reduced as itated in the report, from 35. 98. to 35. 2d. each)-but did the report itate that the barrels for which the noble Ld paid 35. 9d. were made of oak, and thofe for which the noble Duke paid 3s. 2d. were of beech! He was fure the noble Duke had not funk this fmall piece of information from any de figs of throwing blame on his noble prede ceffor in office, but that it arofe merely from accident. He inttanced in another article, that of falt-petre. The report flated that falt-petre had been reduced from 1151. to 721. 75. per ton; that is to fay, that to the highest price ever given by the late board on an extraordinary occafion was opposed the low price that had been given by the noble Duke. The fame principle of deduction be ing obferved in all the other articles, Mr. Courtney remarked, the Houfe would find that the dark charge, obliquely conveyed by the report against the late Mafter Gen. of the Ordnance, of having wantonly spent, for the last three years, 95,0col. of the public money, which he might have faved without cramping the fervice, would vanish in Imoke. Mr. Mr. Pelham faid, there was no cenfure wha ever intended against the late Matter " of the Ordnance, by the manner in which the estimates were ftated. If they were contrafted with those which had preceded them, it was merely by way of accounting for what the noble Duke had done during the time he had been in office. He meant no reflection whatever; but, in order to prove to the public that he ferved them to the beft of his ability, it was neceffary to draw a line between his conduct, and that of the noble Lord whom he fucceeded. Mr. Adam faid, the note annexed to the report certainly conveyed a cenfure upon the late Board of Ordnance, as far as it depended upon the ordinary conftruction of the wording it; but as it had been declared that there was no intention in the noble Duke, whofe name was fubfcribed to the report, to fuggeft any fuch oblique cenfure, certainly all the arguments that had refted on that idea were done away. With respect to the mode of making out the prefent eftimate in a new and more fatisfactory form than had been heretofore the practice, he thought the noble Duke entitled to great praife; but as to the merit of making contracts on cheaper terms than his predeceffor,, he could not fee much in it, for, confidering the different circumftances under which the former contracts had been made, there was no ground for faying, that the former board had been remifs in their duty, or inattentive to thofe concerns of the public with which they were entrusted. Gen. Conway thought the whole of the debate diforderly. The motion was, that the Speaker do leave the chair, about which not a word had been faid. He thought it a little extraordinary for thofe who had the direction of the laft board of Ordnance to fet up a defence where there was no acculation; for he protefed he could not fee an iota of charge against any one of them. It had A mate, and having reduced the articles much nearer to correctnefs than ever was known before, it was a matter of courfe to contraft his own mode with that of the old mode, in order to fhew the fuperiority of the one over the other; but that furely did not neceffarily imply a cenfure on those who had followed the old mode. The whole converfation, the General contended, had been diforderly, and, as was generally the cafe in all difB orderly proceedings, much had been faid that ought not to have been faid before, the Houle were in committee. Loid North justified the old board for having gone into their defence; but as it was now feen there were many mistakes in the report, and generally understood C that no blame was intended, he did not fee the neceflity of proceeding in their defence, as every fhadow of blame was done away. Mr. Hufey wondered how Lord North could alert that every fhadow of blame was done away. The Salt-petre contract was more than a fhadow (see vol. LII. Dp. 364); which, had it not been noticed in that Houfe, would have put near 20,000l. of the public's money into fomebody's pocket who had no right to it, at the fame time that the E. I. C. who had the right, were forced to go without what was jully'due to them. The re Sir Grey Cooper obferved, that it was not poflibie to reduce the pretent queftion to any known rule of proceeding, becaufe the report accompanying the efti mate made the cafe a new one. port had not been called for by the House; and had it not been ipoken to now, it would have been impoflible to have fpoken to it with fo much propriety at any other time. The question for the Speaker leaving the chair was now called for, and carried. The House refolved itself into a ComGmittee of Supply, and Mr. Steele proceeded to explain the articles in the eftimate. March 11. The Report from the Committee of Supply on the Ordnance estimates was brought up. on all hands been acknowledged that the noble Duke had, with great ability, industry, and unqueftionable integrity, produced a eonfiderable reform in the mode of doing the bufines of the Ordnauce board, "Why then fhould that good work be depreciated by atttributing un- Mr. Rojerwarne objected to it, on the worthy motives to the noble author of it? ground of extravagance; from the ruined The noble Duke, he was perfuaded,Hate of our finances it might naturally would difdain to raise his own merit by an attempt to charge others with a condu lefs laudable. Having altered the mode of preparing the Ordnance Eti have been expected that a great reduction of our military etablishments would have taken place; infead of that, expences are multiplied. Works for the defence of of our dock-yards are fet on foot that are Mr. G. Onflow wifhed the famie, and fhewed to demonftration, that it was not worth the keeping. courfe with America; he produced the heads of a treaty calculated to lead to the establishment of fuch commercial regulations between Great-Britain and the United States, as should add to the A interefts of both. He concluded with moving that the Speaker do now leave g the Chair. Capt. J. Luttrell rofe to oppose it. Though he knew, he faid, he fhould again risk the difpleafure of a Right Mr. Burke oblerved, that it had been Hon. Gent. [Mr. W. Pitt], he could generally agreed on both fides, that tho' not help mixing with the politics of the there was great praife due to the De times, and the rather as he was now of Richmond for having reformed the given to understand, that he was to be Office of Ordnance and introduced a new alike refponfible, for the operation of mode of ftating the estimates, there was the bill before the Hoafe, with the no intention, by the prefent report, to Right Hon. Gent. who brought it in; caft the leaft reflection on the conduct of a piece of information to which he was his noble predeceffor [Lord Town- an utter ftranger, when he was accuffhend], whofe abilities qualified him to Ctomed to hear one fet of men blamed fill any public fituation with as much for patronifing a Tea Act, another for dignity as his many private virtues entitled Explanatory Acs, a third for Prohibitory him to the esteem of all who knew him. Bills, and others for Bills for confifcating He added, at the fame time, that if there American property; and he muft furely was a man in the kingdom, particularly have dreamt of cenfures, pains, and pe calculated to root out a bad fyftem of nalties, impeachments against Minifters, official conduct, and to introduce a new &c. if every Member in that House and more ufeful plan of proceeding, it Dwas alike refponfible for A&ts of Parwas the D. of Richmond, whofe natural liament. He was glad, however, to find induftry, whofe difdain of inglorious it admitted by the general acquiefcence cafe, and whofe zealous attachment to of the Houfe, that the refponfibility for the principles of public a conomy, mark- the effect of every Act of Parliament ed and diftinguished his character in an was in the Legiflature, and not in the eminent degree. In the courfe of his Minifter. It was a record he should fpeech, Mr. B. was pleasant, in compar- preferve for life. It was a record that ing the merits of the two Mafters General E thould prevent him from giving his fancof the Ordnance with thofe of the two tion to a Bill which he could not apVeftris [celebrated dancers j, and in this, prove; a Bill by which the dignity of though he might be thought to depart Parliament and the wealth of the Kingfrom the dignity of the Senator, he ftill dom migh the rifked without a motive, preferved the air of the courtier; for as the King and his Council had al'none but themfelves, he faid, could be ready a power to open the trade with their parallel. He differed from Sir America, and to hold forth advantages Cecil Wray, and dwelt fome time on the to thofe States which it would be imimportance of Gibraltar. He expreffed proper to eftablish by any Bill. The his difapprobation of our land fortifica- trade by this means might be opened totions, wifhing rather to confine our at- morrow, and ought to have ban opened tention to our floating bulwarks, on long ago. He thought this the fafeft which the fecurity of this kingdom must and most advifable way, as proceeding ultimately depend. He concluded with by the Bill now before the Houfe would voting for receiving the report, having a require the reflection of an age to make thorough confidence in the prefent Git paffable. Mafter General of the Ordnance. On the queftion being put, the ayes had it. F Mr. Eden obferved, that the Hon. Gentleman's reafons, for the Speaker's not leaving the Chair, were not fuch as wholly coincided with his idea, though they approached very near it. The The order of the day was then read for the Houfe to go into Committee, on the American Trade Bill. Mr. D. Hartley role, and after re-King had certainly no power vefted in minding the Houfe that it was now full him, by the Act alluded to, to levy dufive weeks fince he made a motio for ties on the imports to be made in Ameleave to bring in a Bill to repeal the Pro- rican fhips; and, if the trade was to prohibitory Acts, and to open an inter- ceed, fubject to no burdens, it would proceed |