present measure he confidered as lying within a narrow compass. It was not a queftion between a limited and a general force, but between two defcriptions of limited force. We had two fpecies of forces whofe fervices were limited; firft the militia, of which we had long experience; and next the army of referve, which, in the prefent inftance, we had for the first time tried, and which, from its fervices being extended to the united empire, was a better defcription of force than the militia. But independent of the fuperiority which the army of referve in this refpect had over the militia, independent of its being officered by regular officers, independent of the circumftance that the militia, in a great meafure, lofes its character when carried to too great an extent, and independent of the confideration that the army of referve had been exprefsly intended as a means of recruiting the regulars, he could not conceive any good grounds that, in the prefent fituation of the empire, could be laid for augmenting a force of fo limited a defcription. By the view which he took of the measure before the House, it appeared to him, that an act which had been wifely framed to meet the exigencies of the empire, and to provide for the recruiting of the line, was to be fufpended; that a machine which was in operation was to be put an end to; that plans which had been wifely devifed for procuring that fpecies of force which was under the circumftances of the empire most defirable, were to be given up, in order that fomething elfe, worfe and more inefficient, might be fubftituted inftead of them. They were to adopt a meafure for the augmentation of the more limited force, because this act for raifing the army of referve had not been at once efficient, because it had been found difficult to carry it into full and complete effect in the firft inftance. Confidering all these circumftances, he was of opinion that the prefent measure, viewed comparatively with that which it was propofed by his Majefty's Minifters to fufpend, was one of the most objectionable that could be conceived. He did not look upon it as in any refpect fo eligible as the measure of which we were at prefent in poffeffion, and it did not appear to him to afford fo good a chance of promoting the progrefs of that defcription of force which on all hands was allowed to be moft defirable. On thefe grounds, therefore, he fhould vote against the measure, not as against any augmentation of our force, but because we had every reafon to expect a more effectual increafe to the best description of our force, by the operation of the meafure which was now propofed to be fufpended.

Lord Caftlereagh agreed with his right hon. Friend who fpoke laft, that in many points the army of referve had great advantages over the militia, and principally as forming the nidus of a regular army: but as it was impoffible to procure from those two fources the force that was wanted, it became neceffary to recur to the third fpecies of force. He wifhed to correct a misconception which had gone abroad refpecting the fufpenfion of the army of referve act. It was not the intention of his hon. Friend near him, to entirely fufpend the operation of the act. He would not fufpend the recruiting, but he meant to fufpend the ballots, which created the competition, and the high bounties. To juftify the prefent bill, the noble Lord ftated, that it was in Ireland alone that it was practicable to raise men at a bounty inferior to the line or the army of referve. It arofe from that propenfity which the natives of that part of the empire poffeffed to follow the gentry of the country in preference to regular officers, however excellent. He did not concur in thofe differences which had been endeavoured to be fupported in respect of the mode of raising men in both kingdoms; whether the bounty was direct as in Ireland, or indirect, as in this country, the operation, as far as regarded the financial part of the fyftem, was the fame in both countries. If he thought that the prefent measure could poffibly tend to impede the recruiting for the regular fervice, if it could even prevent the augmentation of that force by five thousand men, it would, in his mind, be an infuperable objection to it. But he did not think it would produce any difficulties in the way of the recruiting service for the line. He had infpected the returns of that service for a feries of years, and he could perceive from them, that the army did not get fewer men, even when the competition was at the higheft. He did not think it advisable to forego the advantages of the prefent bill. A great mafs of the population of Ireland will enter into the militia, but not into the army, and to procure the men wanted the means of recruiting fhould be multiplied. As to the objections that had been urged against the measure on the fcore of finance, and as to its being at the joint expence of the united kingdom, he did not think that would weigh much with Gentlemen, particularly if they reflected that this was the part of the empire moft menaced, and to which the immediate advantages of it would refult: he would therefore vote for

the measure.

Mr. Bankes faid, that Minifters were introducing a fyftem,

which is more limited, and lefs efficient than the army of referve, in lieu of which it was intended to be fubftituted: it was making the Irifh militia in general liable to the service of the two countries; becaufe a recruit will now fuppofe himself included, and eventually equally liable with others, and will, no doubt, require a larger bounty to induce him to enter. The deficiency occafioned by the power granted to his Majesty ought to be fupplied by a force equally good in every refpect. The noble Lord had faid, that it was an eafy manner of difciplining the men who were newly raised; but there were other regiments, of a different defcription, in which they might as eafily attain that difcipline. We were providing for a cafe which was not exifting, as it must be acknowledged that we are in no greater danger of invafion than we had been during the winter time. He was decidedly against the bill, as it was encouraging a fpecies of force which was inferior to the other two-the army of referve and the regular army, which was an object quite contrary to the intention of the Minifters themselves, at a time they were expreffing a defire to increafe the regular army. It had been faid that the army of referve act was not to be fufpended entirely; he wifhed to know what was the intention of Government upon that point.

Lord Caftlereagh explained, and faid, it was intended to fufpend the operation of the army of referve act, in a certain degree, and to take from the counties which were deficient in their quotas, a moderate fine in lieu thereof; but not to fufpend the recruiting, even for that fervice, at a bounty inferior to that for the regiments of the

line..

Mr. Windham did not think that the noble Lord, who fpoke in answer to the right hon. Gentleman oppofite (Mr. Pitt), had been fuccefsful in combating his arguments. He would venture to object to the former bill, although it had had the ratification of that Houfe; and he objected to the prefent one on account of its relation thereto. It had been faid by thofe on the oppofite bench, that he, and others in that House, were always complaining of the conduct of Minifters, and, in fhort, that "though they piped to us, we would not dance; and though they mourned, we would not lament." (A laugh) He, however, would ftill obferve, that he never went fo far as to say, "difband the militia," he only wished that no augmentation of that fyftem thould take place. Minifters did not call this a difpofable force,

but

but they faid that it gave them a greater command of their difpofable force. That he denied; because the one was quite inconfiftent with the other. The recruiting for the one would undoubtedly interfere with the other. Every one of the Minifters on the oppofite bench feemed to be, as it were, his own antagonist. Every measure they adopted, they counteracted by the adoption of fome other measure. In short, they were in the fituation of a man who is haunted by his own spectre; the right hand was fighting with the left. Although they had already procured no less than 400,000 volunteers, 70,000 militia, and 36,000 men for the army of referve, they feemed ftill to be wishing to increase that defcription of force deftined for a limited fervice. Such measures were totally at variance with one another. He difapproved entirely of fuch a circuitous mode of attaining the object in view, as that of raifing men for the militia, as a ftep towards increafing the regular army. The militia were now raised by bounty, and not by ballot; and why not give the force to be raised the appellation of fencibles? An ancient Grecian, faid he (alluding to Anacreon), could never produce any thing from his harp but the strain of love, notwithstanding the great number of ftrings on his inftrument; fo, in his opinion, were the Minifters always harping on the fame ftring; they feemed to him to end always where they began. In the cafe of rebellion, it might be faid, that it was proper to bring away the Irish militia from their own country to prevent a degree of party fpirit, to prevent a regiment of Orangemen fighting against Catholics. No man would with to augment the ferocity of fuch civil wars as had occurred in that country. Were any troops to be substituted for the militia, he should think that foreigners were as fit for the purpose as any other, to prevent Englishmen or Irishmen fighting against their own relations. Although, however, he might be induced to agree to the propriety of bringing Irishmen out of their own country on that account, yet by the measures adopted by the Ministers he found that other Irishmen were to be raised in their place. He doubted not that fome gentlemen had been induced to vote for the bill which had lately paffed, upon the principle of the Irith militia being thus always kept up at the fame height. This put him in mind of a certain. Gentleman, who always loved to intoxicate his guests, and the method he adopted was, by keeping his punch-bowl conftantly supplied by an apparatus under his table; fo that thofe whom he entertained

tertained were induced to drink too much, by their perceiving that the quantity of liquor never decreafed. Unless the deficiency was to be fupplied by foreign or regular troops, he thought Ireland would be left in a defenceless state. He faw no profpect of that reciprocity which had been so often alluded to. Such measures made it more and more impoffible to procure that fpecies of force which was wanted. Minifters first tried their hand at one mode, and finding that not to fucceed altogether to the expetations of the country, they then try another, and finding that as bad, they then come to the militia fyftem again. In fhort, they feemed, notwithstanding their own inclinations, to be following means to procure any thing but a regular army. He had read of a lady who faid to her gallant, that he was the only man the ever knew who feemed determined not to be a gentleman. He might fay of the prefent Minifters, that they appeared to him to be the only Minifters he ever had heard of, who were determined never to have an army.

Mr. Secretary Yorke faid, that fo far from his Majesty's Minifters feeming to be determined not to have a regular army, as the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Windham) had expreffed himself in the conclufion of his fpeech, he fhould only mention, what had been often taken notice of lately in that House, that the army was greater at this moment than it ever was at an equal period in any former war. In point of fact, the regular army was never a popular meafure in this country. The plan which had been always adopted was to reduce it at the end of every war. The force proposed to be raised by this bill was acknowledged, by thofe who had experience of Ireland, to be the best that could be adopted in the prefent fituation of the country, and would leaft of all interfere with the regular army. Ireland had, as yet, contributed lefs to the augmentation of the army than its proportion, when compared with Great Britain. Of 20,000 militia, 18,000 only were raised in that country at this moment: of 10,000 men for the army of referve, only 7,000 had been procured; Ireland had therefore a great number of men yet to furnish. There were a great many men of property who would come forth and endeavour to augment the militia at the bounty propofed, who would not enter into any other kind of fervice. He was convinced, that by the influence of fuch leading Gentlemen in Ireland, the force propofed by the bill could be foon raised without at all interfering with the récuiting of our regular army.

Mr.