Chairman-continued.

am an agent, which will show that in the way I think it should do.

1743. Do you think it would be possible to make that system general?-I am afraid not, and my reason is because farmers will not keep

accounts.

1744. Would they be induced to keep accounts if they were under the impression that it might affect the amount of tithes that they would have to pay?-They know it now.

1745. They would sooner pay the higher sum than take the trouble?-They have not the opportunity, because in all my experience the landlords pay it, and they do not trouble themselves about anything further.

1746. The landlords pay the tithes in your part of the world?-Yes; I think three-fourths of the landlords do pay the tithes.

1747. So that you do not hear much of the tithes in the farms?-No.

1748. Is it your experience in the counties in which you act as agent that much grain is consumed on the farm?-A very large proportion.

1749. More than formerly in your experience? -Yes.

1750. Your memory goes back to the time of the Tithe Commutation?-Before then. I began work in 1828, and that is a great many years ago, and I can give a great deal of information since then.

1751. Do you find much variation in the weights and measures in which corn is sold in the different counties?-Yes, in various ways they have a different mode of selling. I will take Aylesbury, which is the most important market near me; there they sell it to weigh so much per bushel.

1752. Always the same amount?-They sell by the horse load, or per quarter.

1753. Is the Inspector of Corn Returns a prominent person, in your experience, in the markets? -He is one of the Excise officers.

1754. Do you see much of him?-He is always in attendance during certain hours of the market.

1755. Have you noticed what amount of returns? It is pretty much the opinion of one man who makes a return, and it is very much guided by his opinion.

1756. One man, do you say?-One man; he always buys the best wheat.

1757. Do you think that his return is a criterion of the general value of wheat? -No.

1758. Is it too high or too low?-Too high. 1759. Should you be in favour of taking the corn averages for districts or counties; do you think that would be more satisfactory than taking them through the United Kingdom?Yes, certainly.

1760. Have you devoted any attention to the Scotch system of taking fiars prices?-No, I have not sufficient knowledge of that to speak on it.

Mr. Jeffreys.

1761. In comparing the prices of the corn on the farms for the corn rent, yon say wheat only is considered?-Yes, that is so.

1762. Why do you not consider oats and barley? Because the Act of Parliament directs

[Continued.

Mr. Jeffreys-continued. otherwise. You see with regard to all enclosures where there are corn rents they were fixed by special Act of Parliament for that particular parish.

1763. Therefore, of course, the calculation that you go on for the corn rents is not a similar calculation to the corn averages?—No.

1764. It includes the three kinds of grain?Yes.

1765. Are the farmers content with these corn rents, only taking wheat into consideration ?--I cannot say that they are content; rather on the contrary; but at the same time, there being the Act of Parliament enclosing the parish in which their farm is situated, they are obliged to abide by it.

1766. But they are not content?—No.

1767. When you calculate this price of wheat, what weight do you consider it ?-By the Act I refer to, the special Act for that parish, it states, you see, the best marketable wheat sold in the open market in the said county.

1768. At what weight per bushel? It does not say what weight.

1769. Then how do you calculate it?-By the returns made by the inspector.

1770. Do you mean by the returns that he makes for the tithes and these corn averages?— For the Government.

1771. Do you know what weight that is?— Sixty-two lbs.

1772. The Government returns are taken on 60 lbs. per bushel ?—Yes.

1773. But I wish to know what it is in your neighbouring markets, what weight wheat is usually sold at per bushel?-Sixty-three lbs. is the general weight.

1774. Therefore the price that goes into the Government is not a correct price for wheat according to the weight?—No.

1775. You get 3 lbs. thrown in per bushel? Yes.

1776. You said just now that the prices were calculated sometimes by the quarter, sometimes by the load; of course that is the same thing exactly? Yes; it is all brought to per

quarter.

1777. A load is only five quarters; it is calculated by the quarter?-That is so.

1778. And then you said just now that no wheat is saleable unless it weighs at least 63 lbs. to the bushel ?—No, not exactly so. Supposing, for instance, it only weighed 53 lbs. per bushel, the deficiency in weight is made up or allowed for in price.

1779. In your county what is the usual proportion of the tithes to the rent?- One-fifth.

1780. Is it mostly corn land or grass land?Mostly corn land.

1781. What is the average tithe per acre on the land? I should think it will average certainly not under 5 s.

1782. And the average rent, you mean to say, is 25 s.? Yes.

1783. In your answer just now to the Chairman, you said more grain was consumed now on the farms than formerly; have you any reason to give for that? - The chief reason would be the increased head of stock which is now kept.

1784. Is there any other reason?-They find,

you

you see, that at the present prices they must either buy cheap foreign corn, or else they must use all their inferior corn.

1785. Therefore it results in this, that the great proportion of the inferior corn, if not the whole, is consumed on the farm ?-That is so.

1786. And, therefore, in making out these returns, inferior corn is not considered at all?No.

Mr. Elton.

1787. Is it a large extent of country covered by this local Act you referred to fixing corn rents? It is one parish; it may be a small parish, or it may be a large parish.

1788. There are several parishes and several Acts; is that it? Yes. I have got my award it?—Yes. in one case. I have been employed four times in my life to make the returns.

1789. What provision is there in the Act for revising the returns every few years?-Every 14 years the rector, the clergyman of the parish, gives public notice on the church doors that the time has arrived, and he nominates so-and-so; then it is for the landowners to say whom they

will have.

1790. It is by arbitration in your neighbourhood?--Yes.

1791. Is there any appeal to the justices?--I have never known one, because our awards are sent in to the clerk of the peace, and I suppose they go before the justices; at all events, I know nothing of it.

1792. But you know that appeals have been made to the justices lately in some parts of the country under those Acts to fix the price of corn? -Yes.

1793. You told us what farms they were that were subject to these wheat and corn rents, or wheat rents, but I do not correctly gather what that class was; you said something about common field land? They had to be fixed upon farms that were entirely old enclosures, not affected by the enclosure.

1794. What provision was made for the common field land that was enclosed? - That such proportion as the valuers thought proper should be set out in lieu of tithes.

1795. So that they are tithe free?-Tithe free; in fact, corn rents only occur upon those farms which had not that opportunity.

17: 6. Which had no common field attached to

was

them all?-No, or very little ; if it SO credited to them and the balance put to corn

rent.

Mr. Stanley Leighton.

[Continued.

1800. I think you said that sometimes your estimate of the value of the corn which you make in the mode which you described was higher than the official estimate?-Sometimes it goes one way and sometimes the other.

1801. Could you give me an instance of your estimate being higher than the official estimate? -I do not think I can.

1802. But you are aware of the fact that sometimes your estimate of the value of corn on the farm is higher than the official returns; you are satisfied of that fact?-Yes, sometimes on account of the markets varying afterwards.

1803. Now your objection, I believe, to the method of taking the corn averages is that they represent only the highest pricedcorn?—Yes.

1804. Therefore they would be higher than what I may call the average?—Yes.

1805. But yet they do not come up to what you consider to be the value of the corn on the farm in some cases?-I think they exceed it in a way, because when we value in the way I have spoken of at our meetings, we consider that all tail or inferior corn ought to be considered, and it is considered.

1806. It is considered in your estimate ?-Yes. 1807. And yet that estimate comes higher than what you think the too high estimate for the corn averages?-Our meetings are meetings are held at Michaelmas just after harvest, and the prices are taken as the prices at that time for the year; they may rise, or they may fall afterwards.

1808. You are satisfied that you are right in your statement that your estimates are sometimes higher than the official estimate ?-Yes, after a lapse of a few weeks, as the markets may

vary.

1809. Is the grievance of the farmer in respect of the method of arriving at the tithe rent averages removed when the landlord pays the tithe rent-charge?-Yes, you hear nothing then of any complaints.

1810. We should be able then to get rid of the grievance as respects the farmer by making it compulsory that the landlord should pay the tithe rent-charge?—Yes.

1811. I understand you to be of opinion that it is impossible to get at the value of corn consumed on the farm by a return from the farmers? -I do not think you could obtain it.

1812. Would you tell me how you would suggest that the method of taking the corn averages should be improved?-One way would be by more places being appointed for taking the

average.

1813. First of all, then, you would have more places, and would you suggest anything else?Yes.

1814. What is your other suggestion?-I rather think I should change it altogether. My idea is that if something could be arranged, assuming that the Local Government Bill passes, at every place where there is a local board established, so much the better.

1815. You would make the agency through which the corn returns were taken the agency of the county council, perhaps?—No, the county council would not do; it must be the local boards.

1816. The district councils, you think, would

Mr. Stanley Leighton-continued. be the best agency rather than the Board of Trade? Yes, I do.

1817. And that they should appoint the inspectors?-1 do not think it would be neces

sary.

1818. Then how would you get the returns. I understand that you would not get the returns from the farmers of the corn consumed on the farms; that would be impossible, you say?—I think you could, by this means.

1819. I thought you told me that you considered it impossible to get returns from the farmers of the corn consumed on their own farms?-Under the present system I do consider it so.

1820. May I ask you if you consider the corn consumed on the farm an ingredient in the market price of corn?-Yes.

1821. To the consumer?—Yes.

1822. The consumer being the grower?—

Yes.

1823. You consider that the grower is one of the public, as it were?—Yes.

1824. But that would be different, would it not, from the present method for arriving at the market price?—Yes.

1825. You would, therefore, get rid of the present system of taking the market price according to the definition which we have in the Act of Parliament of the market price; you would get rid of that?—Yes.

Mr. Milnes Gaskell.

1826. You said that the landlords paid the tithes of the district?-Yes.

1827. What extent of district do you speak of; is it one county ?-No, in the three counties with which I have to do, Herts, Beds, and Bucks.

1828. You say that the landlords generally pay the tithes ?—Yes.

1829. Is that an old practice, or a recent practice? That has all arisen within the last seven years.

1830. Is not that really a form of giving reduction; instead of giving reduction, do not the landlords pay the tithes instead?-In some cases, that is the way in which it has been done. For instance, if a man pays 25 s. an acre, and there is 5 s. tithe, the landlord says, "Well, in future I will pay the tithe." I can say that a clergyman, Canon Jeffreys, for whom I am agent, was the first person to suggest that thing.

1831. One of the witnesses at the last meeting, Mr. Bailey, I think it was, said that the growers' prices could only be obtained by making the agricultural return compulsory; do you agree with that?-Yes, I do.

1832. Do you think it would be possible to make the agricultural returns compulsory?-I think it would be next to an impossibility. I think they would rather run the risk.

1833. Do you think farmers like agricultural returns any more than accounts?-No; they will make the returns of cropping very much sooner than they will make the returns of the sale of

corn.

Mr. Cornwallis West.

[Continued.

1834. You told us just now that you believed that could not obtain the price of corn sold by the farmers from them; now do not you think that if some allowance, some small sum, were to be allowed to them for the making of such return, they would be very much more inclined to make it than they are now ?-I do not think they would.

1835. You believe, then, that it is utterly impossible to get the seller at first hand to make any return of the price at which he sells ?-He would rather ride a dozen miles to see somebody about it than make a return.

1836. Do you think it would be possible to create a jury consisting partly of tithe payers and partly of tithe owners to assess the proper average prices?-I do; and that is why I say I think it could be done through these local boards.

1837. If I understand you, you propose that the district councils should have the power of assessing or making averages of corn grown in the district or sold in the district?-Or rather that they should appoint proper persons to do

So.

1838. Do you think that it would be fairer that that average price should be the price of the previous year instead of the seven years previously?-I think three years is a very good time. I would rather, perhaps, say the result of the previous year, and have no circulation at all.

1839. Has much land been turned into pasture about your neighbourhood?-A great quantity has been grubbed; woodland.

1840. Is that subject to tithe ?-It was not, but as soon as it was grubbed it was liable.

1841. Are you aware that the prices that are quoted in Scotland at the present moment are about 27 per cent. lower than the assessed prices at the present time?—No, I am not.

1842. Do you think that it was fair in 1836 to assign an equal value to wheat, barley, and oats, in fixing the average?—No.

1843. And you consider, probably, that the high tithe average at the present time that is complained of is owing to the fact that barley is higher now than the price fixed in 1836, although wheat has gone down?-Yes; and another thing is the tithe being fixed on a parish which, perhaps, grows, but a very small proportion of barley and a very small proportion of oats, too. I could name a parish where from that cause the tithe is very heavy indeed.

1844. Then you would alter the system which was created in 1836 by which a very much larger quantity of oats and barley was taken into the calculation than corn?—Yes.

1845. And you would propose that that should be done, and that subsequently the district council should have the power of creating an average price for tithe ?-I think that would be more satisfactory.

Colonel Eyre.

1846. Is it not the fact that there are greater variations in the price of the highest class of malting barley and the lowest class barley than in either oats or in wheat?-I think you may take it that in many cases there is double the vaaiation.

1847. And if this lower class barley is to be taken

Colonel Eyre-continued. taken into consideration, it would considerably reduce the average?—Yes.

1848. You said, I think, that you preferred to take the corn averages for the counties as against taking them for the country generally; did I understand you rightly?--Not exactly so. I should rather have the county taken than the country, because it applies to matters where corn rents are fixed.

1849. Take some parts in the Lincolnshire wolds where they grow the highest classes of corn; would not that injuriously affect that particular county because the tithes would be much higher on account of the high price of barley?I think perhaps to some extent that would be so for that county.

1850. Is it not fair then to take the average of the corn throughout the whole country, better than taking it by the county ?-That is why I say that all local boards throughout the country should be a party to the returns.

Chairman.

1151. Do you mean the county boards?-I mean the district boards.

1852. But you mean under the Act?—Yes. 1853. Whom would you make the responsible official for making the returns? -The clerk to the board should certainly be the man to make the returns, and the chairman or the board itself should nominate the persons who should furnish him with the information.

1854. Where would you have the average sent up? If this average were sent up to the Local Government Board, instead of as now to the Board of Trade, then we should get the proper average of the kingdom.

1855. But you would not propose to send up such a number of small returns, would you ?Yes.

1856. Without having them made up in the county?—Yes; I should prefer that it should be the whole country.

1857. But would you send up one return from each county?—I would make it from the board itself, and if there was a clerk appointed for the purpose at the Local Government Office

1858. But are you speaking of the district council or of the whole county board?-Of the district council; it might pass through the county board, it is true, but I think it would be better to go to the office direct.

1859. How would you propose that this clerk should take the average?-By the local board; by his board having selected three of the best men in the neighbourhood to make the return.

1860. How are these three men to make the return; what is the system?-I think they would take care to have men who kept a good accountant to produce accounts showing what had been their consumption or their sales of corn for the year.

1861. Do you think that if you took three farmers at one of these district councils that would be a fair way of arriving at the average value?-I would not confine them to farmers.

1862. You would extend it to any people?Yes.

1863. You think that taking three men in one of these districts that their transactions would be

Chairman-continued.

[Continued.

a sufficient indication of the amount of business done?-And the inquiries which they would naturally make from their neighbourhood.

1864. How would they be able to prepare the return?-They would say what have been their sales or what has been the average price realised in their district.

1865. How would you propose to check these returns?-I would send them all to the Local Government Board, and if they find any discrepancy in the returns, I would say that they should cause some sort of inquiry to be made from their district.

1866. But how are they to detect a discrepancy unless they refer to the buyer or seller? -In the returns made. For instance, if in one place they find wheat sold at 50s. a quarter and in another place 40 s., they would naturally inquire what was the reason of it.

1867. But the prices would vary at different parts?-Not a great deal.

1868. I will ask you a question about Aylesbury; a return for one week in November gives the amount of grain sold in one week at Aylesbury as 80 quarters of wheat, no barley, and no oats; would you think that a fair criterion of the amount of business done?-Very misleading.

1869. I suppose there is less business done in February than in autumn?—Yes.

1870. Would you think this is a fair account of the business done in Aylesbury in February; no wheat, no barley, no oats ?-No.

1871. Do you think a market would take place at Aylesbury without any grain of any kind being sold?-No; there are 13 corn merchants in the Corn Exchange at Aylesbury, and I daresay all buy more or less.

1872. Would you think it a ground for grievance if there was no grain of any kind returned from the market, with the prices paid from the market, at Aylesbury; do you think that constitutes a grievance or not?- They bring the best wheat to Aylesbury.

1873. Should you think it a deficiency in the corn returns if there is no return whatever for a place like Aylesbury?-No return would be very wrong.

1874. It would not be a satisfactory state of things?-To make no return would be very

wrong.

Mr. Rankin.

1875. As to your idea of the district council, what method would you propose to see that these gentlemen who were to collect the returns should in any way represent both sides of the question; that is to say, the tithe-payer and the titheowner?-I think the selection by the local board would be satisfactory; they would be sure to select men who would make proper returns. may be a landowner and farmer, a man who farms his own land; it may be a miller or it may be an ordinary farmer.

It

1876. That is your opinion; of course you are aware that the electors would be chiefly tithepayers?—Yes.

1877. Not tithe-owners?—No.

1878. And yet you think it still would be a fair tribunal to place the selection of returns in?