20 July 1888.]

[Continued.

Mr. Rankin-continued. 1351. Would that, be compensated for in, some respect by the machinery ?-No, I think not.

1352. You think that the amount of cost for labour expended upon an acre of growing wheat, and harvesting it, is greater now than it was in 1836? - Certainly it would be in growing and harvesting it. There would be one question: whether the cost of threshing it would be as great now as it was then,

1353. But upon the whole I understand you to say that you think the cost of production is greater? Yes.

1355. Then it was in that sense that you said they were ignored; you were not refering to the use of them? They are put to no use in our neighbourhood whatever, except that occasionally a valuer, takes them to decide the price of an ingoing crop of corn.

1356. I suppose. you do not look on these prices as in any way ruling future prices ?-No; certainly not.

1357. You also said that there were no data whatever to find out the value of the crop in the country? Yes.

1358. Are you quite accurate in that?I think so.

1359. Are you not aware that there is a valuation of the crops of the country published every year now?-From the agricultural returns.

1360. But besides that there is the value?Yes; but I do not admit that it is accurate.

1361. You admit that it is published? -Yes. 1362. Is not that published upon the best data that can be given ?-No; I think not.

1363. Can you suggest any improvement upon the system; this is an important point?-I would make the agricultural returns compulsory; then if there was some punishment inflicted upon all the farmers who did not return the quantity of wheat they grew they would very soon make a point of returning it; and then we should know exactly what our supply of English growth was. 1364. Are you of opinion that a good deal of wheat is sold that is not returned?-I am positive; those returns show it.

1365. Oh, no, those returns do not show anything of the sort?-In Frome Market there has been no return made for seven weeks.

1366. That is only a return of corn sold on a certain day; I am speaking of the amount of area that is sown; I am not speaking of the prices of the corn averages at all. I repeat the question: I repeat the question: do you think the amount of area that is returned as sown under wheat is very inaccurately given? -I say it is inaccurate.

1367. Does the same answer refer to barley and oats also ?—Yes.

1368. Is it too much, or too little ?-I should say too little.

1369. Then your opinion is that there is a greater amount of land under tillage in England and Wales than is shown by these agricultural returns?-Yes.

1370. What advantage would it be to the

Mr. Rankin-continued. farmer to make such return less than it is?-I do not think they make the returns less; I think that a great many returns are not made at all. The farmers will not make returns.

1371. I suppose you are aware that this return does not depend altogether on the return, that the farmers make now; but upon, those collected by the revenue officers?—Yes.

1372. Do you think these revenue officers are altogether deceived?-I do not say that they are altogether deceived; they can only ask, a farmer to make a return..

1373. Do you not think they can find out in their neighbourhood. if there are a great many farmers who do not make the returns?-They could.

1374. But they do not do that?—I would not say that.

1375. But I think you have said that?-I have not said that; I say there are no means of compelling farmers to make the agricultural

returns.

1376. I admit that; that is, not the point. These revenue officers get the best information they can, and if they cannot get it they say (it) may be untruthfully) that they themselves estimate the returns, in the best way they can. My question is now: with those means of getting at the returns, do you still think they very inaccu-.. rately state the area?-I did not know that; I thought that the only returns published, were those got direct from the farmers. I did not know that the Inland Revenue officers made the

returns.

1377. You stated just now that you did know of that?-I think not.

1378. That used to be the way; the farmers themselves gave the returns; but that system is altered. I thought you knew that. With regard to the value of crops grown, and the acreage, why do you think that is inaccurate?-I have Dom-, bush's List here. In 1885 it appears there were 2,553,000 quarters of wheat grown; in 1887 there was a less acreage of 150,000 acres. It is notorious that the crop of 1887 is the best we have had for a good many years. As the returns are worked out the 1887 crops shows a deficit, compared with 1885, of 400,000 quarters.

1379. Are you not mixing up two things; what returns are you alluding to as showing a deficit? I am alluding to the corn returns as they are worked out every week in this list, which is the greatest authority in the trade.

1380. That is the sale list? Yes.

1381. Therefore your contention is that in 1887 there was less corn returned as sold than in 1885?—Yes.

1382. But that still might be the case, and yet the crop in 1887 might have been very much larger than the crop of 1885? One would assume that there is more wheat in the farmers' hands now of this crop than in 1885.

1383. The farmer might have consumed more upon the farm. My point is this: that these returns which you have quoted from as sale returns, so to speak, are not, and never were, intended to be a return of all the quantity grown; merely the quantity sold?-Yes.

1384. But there is, over and beyond these statistics,

Mr. Rankin-continued. statistics, an estimate of the value of the crops in the country?—Yes.

1385. You have seen these returns?—Yes. 1386. Then I want to bring you back to this point: do you still hold to your expression that there is no data whatever as to the quantities of corn grown?-No accurate data.

1387. You put in the word "accurate"?-Yes. 1388. Then I understand you to say that you think these agricultural returns which we now possess, and which are more elaborate documents each year, are of no value, or very little ?— Practically very little.

1389. Will you go further and say that they should be discontinued?-No; I would not say that. I think they might be made valuable if they were made 'compulsory.

1390. You say you are a dealer and miller; do you buy yourself from the growers or from the dealers?--Principally from the growers. 1391. Then of course you return your operations to the inspector?-Not always.

1392. Why do you not do that?-Well, we do not do it.

1393. Is that the reason that there are so few return in Frome Market?—I think it is; I must plead guilty.

1394. Then to some extent it is the fault of the dealers and buyers that in these markets these returns are inaccurate?-It is entirely their fault.

1395. I understand you to join with other witnesses in agreeing that the chief grievance which the farmers have is, that there is not so much corn sold now in the market as heretofore off the farm; and that more corn is consumed upon the farm, more of the inferior corn?-I can only repeat what I have said, that it all depends upon the harvest.

1396. I am speaking of years?-In a series of years I think there is more consumed on the farm.

1397. Can you suggest any remedy for that, in order to get at the price more accurately ?Yes; by making the sellers give the corn returns instead of the buyers. When I say sellers, I

mean the

growers.

1398. That would only affect the corn actually sold? Yes. And at the same time I would make them return the quantity they consume.

1399. That is quite a different thing; you would make them return the quantities they consume?-Yes.

Mr. Milnes Gaskell.

1400. Have these agricultural returns been popular; do the farmers like making them ?—I think they are getting more accustomed to make them; they were very unpopular at first.

1401. Is it easy to obtain them as a rule?-It is easier than it was.

1402. I understand that your only recommendation is to make these agricultural returns compulsory?—Yes.

1403. Would not that entail constant friction, and necessitate constant penalties?-Only for a short time.

1404. You told us that you yourself do not make the returns very often?-Not always.

[Continued.

Mr. Milnes Gaskell-continued. 1405. The Board of Trade has power to exact penalties from you for not doing so?—Yes.

1406. Are you aware of any case in Somersetshire where the Board of Trade has exacted any penalties?-No.

1407. Yet, although you think the Board of Trade has not exacted any penalties for obviously insufficient returns all over the country, penlties would be easy to exact in future if these agricultural returns were made compulsory?Certainly; it is in the power of the Board of Trade to make the present corn returns much more complete.

1408. Have you any reason to suppose that the Board of Trade would act differently in the future from what they have done in the past ?They might, by paying more attention to the corn returns, get them more complete.

1409. You think the Board of Trade are to blame for the present unsatisfactory condition of the corn returns?--Certainly. For example, in our markets we rarely see an officer on the market at all.

1410. If there were an officer, would you make the return?-There ought to be an officer on the market the whole time the corn is being bought and sold.

1411. In fact you would have a schoolmaster, as it were, to look after you permanently?— Yes.

Mr. Stanley Leighton.

1412. Have you been a farmer for 25 years? --Yes, in a small way.

1413. You said that, in your own experience, farmers in a good harvest buy foreign corn and sell their own?-Yes.

1414. From your own experience during those 25 years, I should like to know whether you can say that you consume less at home now than you used to do?-Ours is principally grass; we do not grow any corn; at least practically none.

1415. Have you any data to show that more corn is consumed at home now than formerly ?— I have no data except my experience in seeing the markets.

1416. And your experience in that respect is, that when it is a good harvest there is less corn consumed at home than there used to be; and that when it is a bad harvest there is more consumed at home than there used to be?-Less of the corn they produce.

1417. My question is this: that on the good harvests now farmers sell their own corn and buy foreign corn?-Yes.

1418. To a much greater degree than they used to do?-No, I cannot say that. Some 20 years ago foreign feeding corn was altogether almost an unknown quantity; at least there was not so much imported as there is now,

1419. Therefore farmers were not in the habit of buying foreign corn to consume at home; and therefore they consumed more of their own corn at home?--The consumption of corn has largely increased on the farms.

1420. That is another point. You say that now they buy foreign corn because it is so cheap, and sell their own; but that in former years they used not to do that?-Quite so.

Mr. Stanley Leighton-continued. 1421. Therefore, so far as that argument goes, which you placed before us, there is less foreign corn consumed now upon the farm; and in a good harvest there is more corn produced on the farm and sold on the market?—I do not think there would be less foreign corn, because I think the consumption of corn on the farms has increased of late years.

.1422. Do you belong to the National Association of Millers ?-No.

1423. Are they a body of some authority? Yes.

1424. Would you agree with what the council stated to the Board of Trade in 1883, which I will read to you: "The council are of opinion that, should the Board of Trade succeed in compelling millers and dealers to return all transactions of British corn, the amount of the tithe averages will be perceptibly increased, and a large amount of discount will be thereby uncreated"?-No; I cannot follow that.

1425. At the same time I presume that so important a body as that must have some reasons for making the statement?-Yes.

1426. But you do not agree with that ?-No. 1427. There is a difference, I presume you would acknowledge, between what is called the market value of the corn and the value of the corn on the farm?-What would you describe as market value?

1428. The value obtained upon the market; if I were to put it in words I should call it the price of corn to the general consumer?—Yes, there would be the difference of hauling from the farm to the railway station.

1429. And then there would be the re-sales ?Yes; and that would depend upon which market you went to; whether it was the market the farmer sold in or the market the consumer bought in.

1430. But before you can get at the price of corn to the public it has to go through all the re-sales; and the last sale of all is the price to the public, is it not; if I want to buy corn which I do not grow I have to go to the factor ?— Yes.

1431. If I want to buy flour I must go to the miller?-Yes.

1432. Then the price to the public is the price after all the re-sales?-Yes.

1433. Has the price for all these length of years during which the corn averages have been rigidly taken been the price to the public such as I have described, the market price?-I think

not.

1434. Then you would not agree with Mr. Little, that the returns were intended to be collected from the prices the consumers have to pay; that is to say, to include the expenses and profits intermediate between the consumer and the producer?-No.

1435. Are you aware that Mr. Giffen has told us that that was the intention of the corn averages?-I never studied the question; I am only looking at it as the corn averages are taken

now.

1436. But they are taken now as they were always taken?-When you say the market price,

[Continued.

Mr. Stanley Leighton-continued. I should say that the market price means the prices made in a market of the corn.

1437. What we want to know is rather what the corn averages are according to law?-When was that Act that Mr. Giffen referred to; which Act did he refer to ?

1438. These returns are made under the 9 Geo. 4, c. 60, s. 18; and a declaration made by the corn factors and sellers was that "the returns to be made by me shall contain the whole quantities and no more." That seems to show that it is the corn factor and not the farmer who has to make the returns?-I should think the corn factors of the present day are very different to what they were in those days. In those days the corn was delivered direct from the farmer to the miller, I take it, and very little of it re-sold; now the bulk of it is re-sold.

1439. Do you think the re-sales make a great difference?-A great difference.

1440. You admit that the re-sales are an estimate of the value to the consumer?-Yes.

1441. You say now that the present system of collecting the corn returns is entirely inaccurate? -Yes.

1442. I want to know whether this inaccuracy makes the corn returns higher or lower ?—I do not know; I am not prepared to answer that question.

1443. You think that the corn averages do not represent the market price of corn?-Not entirely.

1444. But you cannot say whether, if they were more accurate, the prices would be higher or lower? No.

1445. Then, if we had a perfectly accurate system, you are not able to say whether it would be an advantage to take into the case of the tithe payer or of the tithe owner?-It all depends upon what system we have.

1446. I am talking of the present system as it is, which you say is entirely inaccurate. You are unable to say whether it is inaccurate on the ground of being too high or too low?—That

1447. Therefore I say we should not know, if we made these returns perfectly accurate, whether it would be an advantage to the tithe payer or to the tithe owner?—No.

1448. But I understand that you would like to know (naturally it would be very interesting to know) the quantity of corn which is grown in England? Yes.

1449. That is quite another question to the price?--Yes.

1450. And have you any method by which the price of the whole of the corn grown in England could be tested?-I think so, if the growers had to make the corn returns.

1451. Would they make the corn returns of not only what is sold in the market, but of their estimated value of what was consumed at home? -Yes.

1452. Then their estimate would be an opinion and not a fact?—Yes.

1453. Mr. Read has told us that he would not like to rely ever upon farmers for that; do you agree with him?-No.

1454. Do

Mr. Stanley Leighton-continued. 1454. Do you think they could be relied upon to put the right price upon their corn?—Yes.

1455. Untested by the price in the market?I would not say that altogether; they might be controlled to a certain extent.

1456. How would you control them? The collector could surely see whether there was any very great mistake or not.

1457. But he would not see the corn at all?— He could judge of the value.

1458. How could he tell what was the value of a damaged crop?-I do not say that he could tell exactly, but nearly. If a man had damaged barley now he could tell whether it was worth 5 s. or 25 s.

1459. Will you tell me how?-He would judge from the market value of the corn.

1460. But he would not go to the farm and see it; or do you propose that he should do so? No, I would not propose that.

1461. Then how could you (a skilled man like yourself, say) judge what the value of the corn on the farm-leave is, you never having been to the farm and seen the corn, and only knowing what the market price is ?-I could not tell exactly; but I could form a somewhat accurate opinion by seeing it and judging from the stuff we buy from other farmers.

1462. Without knowing whether a storm of rain had fallen on it, or whether it was gathered in without rain?-That would make some difference; but it would not make an enormous difference.

1463. Barley is utterly destroyed by rain, is it not? No, not utterly destroyed; it always has a feeding value.

1464. Then your proposal is to get rid of the returns which represent the market value, and to introduce the growers value, of the corn on the farm?—Yes.

1465. Do you think it could be done by putting a penalty on the farmers for not making returns? -Yes.

1466. How does the diminution of local milling and malting affect the price to the local consumer, of bread, beer, and food for horses; you have told us that it affects the price; I want to know how it affects the price to the public?--I do not think it would make any effect on the price of bread.

1467. How would it affect the price of beer? -The price of beer does not vary, whether barley is dear or cheap.

1468. May I take it from you that the diminution of local milling and malting does not affect the price of cereals to the local consumer?-If you mean the consumer of bread, and the consumer of beer, I think not. I would like to say that I have read in the evidence which I have

had given me that one witness said he thought that if the inferior corn was returned it would reduce the price of wheat 4 s. a quarter; I do not agree with that.

Chairman.

1469. You do not think it would be so much? -No; 2 s., I think, is quite as much as it would be.

Mr. Jeffreys.

1470. You think it would reduce it 2 s. ?-I would not say that, but certainly not more.

Mr. Jeffreys-continued.

[Continued.

1471. When you said that last year the corn was got up in a dry condition and most of it sold, you meant the wheat, I suppose ?---And barley also.

1472. The oats, as you know, throughout England, were very light?-Yes.

1473. And I suppose more oats were consumed cn the farm last year than in any year?—I think the crops was small and I expect so.

1474. Were the oats of very light weight?Yes.

1475. And I suppose you know, as a dealer, that unless a man has a good quality of corn, unless the oats weigh a certain weight, 38 lbs. to 40 lbs., he finds that it is not worth the selling price to sell them?—Yes.

1476. He prefers feeding them on the farm? -Yes.

1477. And the same is the case with the barley; unless it is a good bright sample it is not worth selling price?-Yes, but practically all the barley in the west of England last year was hauled in perfect condition, and it went for malting. 1478. That is not the case throughout England? -I believe so.

Chairman.

1479. I believe that the district of which you have experience is not a district that has much malting barley ?-Yes. I live on the borders of Wiltshire, where they grow the finest barley in England. Some point was raised about the weights; we had some extraordinary weights of corn last year.

Mr. Jeffreys.

1480. About the agricultural returns, you say that they are fallacious, and I think so too. If they are made compulsory, do you not think that farmers ought to have some inducement to send up true returns; is it not a certain amount of trouble to make up returns?- Very little, I think.

that prevents their being returned, is it not, in 1481. It is the trouble of making them up the same way that you do not return all the corn you sell?-But with the agricultural returns it means only half-an-hour's work once a year; but the corn returns make work with us every day.

1482. But with all that, there is a certain amount of clerical work to make up the returns? -Yes.

1483. And in a general way the farmer does not fill up the returns?-That is so.

1484. If it were compulsory on them to make accurate returns, do you not think it would want some inducement?-What inducement would

you hold out?

1485. It seems rather hard that everybody else connected with returns should be paid, and yet that the farmer, who actually has the work to do, should receive nothing. I have only one other question to ask you. When corn (oats, for instance) is sold, first of all it is sold to the dealer, and often the dealer does not have the corn brought into his store at all, but sells it to a third person, and then the farmer carts the oats direct to the rail or some other place, and the business is transacted in that way. The dealer

Mr. Jeffreys-continued.

gets a much higher price that what he has given the farmer, and that higher price is the only one recorded, I imagine, in a general way ?-It would depend upon whom the oats were sold to the last time. If they were sold direct to the consumer that would be the only price recorded.

1486. And that very often means that the dealer's price would be 2 s. more perhaps, as he would have to wait for his money, than what he paid the farmer?-It all depends upon circumstances what the profit is.

1487. I mean in a general way?-Two shillings or 3 s. would be an extravagant profit, I think.

1488. You do not think that they often get as much as that on a quarter of oats?-On a retail quarter of oats they would; but not on a large parcel.

1489. What do you think the usual profit is? -One shilling a quarter on a large parcel, I should say.

Mr. Gray.

1490. We have heard a good deal about consumers' prices, and you were asked by the honourable Member for Shropshire just now whether you would consider the price which a private gentleman gave to his corn merchant for oats would be equivalent to the market prices; that

Mr. Gray-continued.

[Continued.

was the purport of the question. That would be the retail consumers' price?-As I said to the honourable gentleman, I do not quite understand what market prices are. Of course the retail price for 5 quarters of oats would be different from the price which the merchant would pay in the market for the same if he bought 50 or 100 quarters.

1491. You as a business man would not consider that the price which the corn factor (the man who keeps his shop and retails 5 or 10 quarters of oats) asked or obtained for his 5 quarters of oats bought in his shop by a private gentleman as representing the market price of oats on your Somersetshire Market?-Certainly

not.

Mr. Stanley Leighton.

1492. Do you now profess to give an opinion as to the meaning of an Act of Parliament; is your opinion founded on the examination of the Act of Parliament?-Certainly not.

1493. It is only an opinion of what you consider the market price?—Yes.

Colonel Eyre.

1494. If the railway rates are reduced who will get the profit, the grower or the corn dealer? The consumer.

Chairman.

1495. You have been and still are, I believe, a large farmer in Oxfordshire ?-Yes.

1496. Were you formerly in Berkshire?-No. Oxfordshire runs within half-a-mile of Reading Town Hall, because of the bend of the river.

1497. Are you well known at Reading Market; and are you well acquainted with it? -Yes, and several other markets too.

1498. What is your experience of the correctness of the corn returns?- My experience is that the corn returns do not give the prices correctly that the farmers receive, or that the farmers would receive if they sold all their corn. Sir Michael Hicks Beach.

1499. Those are two different things rather?

Chairman. 1500. Have you paid much attention to the corn returns? I have asked many questions about it, and seen something of it.

1501. How large was your first farm?-The first farm I had was nearly 500 acres; but I managed 700 acres for my landlord that was in hand, which he could not let; so I farmed altogether 1,200 acres.

1502. Did you return the corn?-I returned everything then, and the Board of Trade returns every head of stock at the proper time, and also the acreage of corn.

1503. Do you know whether your successor has done the same?—I am aware that he has not returned a head of stock or any corn for five years; he has told me so himself.

1504. Would the inspector of corn returns

Chairman-continued.

in Reading not interfere with a man like that? -Not at all. I might mention another thing whilst I farmed that land (I retired from it of my own free will; I resigned my appointment to take another farm where I live now) 1 farmed it in the ordinary custom of the district. My successor in one year did not sow above 50 acres of wheat on the 1,200 acres; almost all of it is urable; that was not returned. No one but myself could have known that. The returning officer, for instance, could not have found it out.

1505. Do you think there is more corn consumed on the farm of late years, than used to be the case?-I think more. I will give my own experience. I have not sold any tail corn, either wheat or barley or oats, for five years; that is since the drop in prices.

1506. What do you mean by tail corn?-I mean any that is taken out of the corn, or any damaged corn. The tail corn behind the winnowing or threshing machine would be taken out; the damaged corn is corn that is damaged

from a wet harvest.

1507. You do not mean by tail corn, the corn consumed on the farm necessarily ?-I use the two terms tail corn and damaged corn; I could give you a fact that one of our largest millers gave me yesterday, that in the last two months, out of 2,000 quarters of English wheat which he has bought, he has only had five quarters of tail. During the last week he has purchased 200 quarters of English wheat, out of which there was only one quarter of tail. That is one of the largest millers who buys corn on Reading

Market.