486. Were you inspector of any other market previously to your connection with Mark-lane? -No.

487. How many years have you been Corn Inspector at Mark-lane?-I was appointed in 1872, but previously to that I had worked at it.

488. You know, of oourse, that there is a penalty for neglect to make returns of a fine not exceeding 20. ?—I do.

489. In your connection with Mark-lane as Inspector of Corn Returns can you roughly tell me how many times to your knowledge this penalty has been inflicted?-I only recollect one case which I handed in some little time since to the last witness and reminded him of it; that was a case at Reading.

490. I am talking of the matter in connection with London, and my question was since you were first appointed Inspector of Corn Returns at Mark-lane, which I think you said was in 1872, how many cases have you known in which the penalty has been inflicted?-- None.

491. None whatever?-None whatever. 492. Does not it strike you that there must be something peculiar about that?--I have reported cases to the Board of Trade where I have had a difficulty after using my best efforts to get a return, where a case has occurred, and in one more especial instance the Board of Trade sent their solicitor down, and after some time that gentleman gave his return and the matter ended.

493. I think the President of the Board of Trade asked you what in your idea was about the proportion of non-returns?—I would not undertake to say what quantity there may actually happen to be. There are no doubt evasions of the law, and it would be very difficult indeed for any person to collect all the returns.

494. But when we are dealing with a subject that is so large as the business of your department at Mark-lane a mere statement that there are uo doubt cases of non-returns might in the ordinary way be rather misleading, might it not; because am I not right in supposing that the probability is that there is not a single market held at Mark-lane in which there are not scores of cases of transactions not being returned?—I think not; I cannot agree to that.

495. How many days a week is there a market held at Mark-lane ?-There are three markets in the week.

496. And you think that it would be an exaggeration to suggest, or to state, that there are scores of cases on each of those market days of sales which are not returned?—I do, decidedly.

497. Should you be surprised if I could bring evidence to show that the opinion of merchants upon that market was at variance with that opinion of yours ?—I should.

Mr. Gray-continued.

[Continued.

498. Would you be surprised to hear that upon one occasion there were 58 cases in one market of non-returns?—I should.

499. Then in your opinion it is only a matter of a dozen or so we will say of cases of non-return on the average, roughly speaking?-There may be even more than that at times.

500. On one market day?-On one market day in the autumn, in the busy season.

501. I am trying to find out approximately in a rough sort of way what these non-returns represent numerically?-You must remember that in our market on a busy day there will be 4,000 or 5,000 people all buying and selling grain, and the thing is to look after all those people to see that they all make their returns.

502. What you have just stated shows, I think, that there would be a larger number of defaulters than you imagine ?-No.

503. Surely the more people that there are engaged in these transactions the more probability there is of some of them not making returns?-All these people will not be engaged in the English wheat trade.

504. Have you anything to guide you as to what takes place when a sample of corn is sold more than once; have you any experience to to lead you to suppose that each transaction is duly and properly put in the return of the sample being sold? All sales have to be returned.

-

505. I know what the instructions are; but I want to know what your opinion of the actual practice is ?-A sample may be sold in the market at a profit and at a loss.

506. Undoubtedly ?-In both ways that may occur. A man does not always make a profit.

Chairman.

507. But in both cases it would be returned? -Yes. 508. So that the same grain may be returned two or three times over?-Yes.

Mr. Milnes Gaskell.

509. At a profit and at a loss?—Yes.

Mr. Gray.

510. In both cases it should be returned ?— Yes.

511. You have told us that no doubt there are a certain number, a considerable number I think I may put it, although you do not agree that they are so numerous as I imagine them to be, of transactions which are not duly and properly returned?—Yes.

512. I want to find out whether those cases of default take place more particularly in relation to oue class of transaction than to another?They are transactions between dealers.

513. The defaulting cases do you mean?Yes.

514. You think that where the cases of default do take place they are principally in transactions made by dealers?-Yes, middlemen. From millers, malsters, and people who buy the oats on our market, more especially to sell them again as stand holders, 1 get almost all the returns; but there are men who go from market to market, and they may be dealing in transactions, and the

difficulty

Mr. Gray-continued. difficulty is to get many of those men to return them to me.

515. And some do not?-Some do not. I have a difficulty in getting returns from some of them, and there are transactions which they may omit to return owing, perhaps, to their running off to catch their train.

516. Do you think that those dealers deal principally in a high-class corn, or in a more inferior description of corn?-Those are people principally from the Eastern Counties,

517. But you have not answered my question. I did not inquire as to the quality of the dealers; I want to find out whether the corn dealt in by these dealers, amongst whom you have admitted that there is a larger proportion of these defaulters, is a high class corn and dear corn, or whether it is a secondary and cheaper quality of corn?That would depend materially upon the circircumstances, but the wheat as a rule would not be of the very highest class quality; it would be good wheat. Supposing it was barley, some very fine barley comes from Norfolk and Suffolk, and there might be some very decent oats from Lincolnshire.

518. Is it not a fact (I will for a moment restrict myself to talking about barley) that the best barley as a rule gets picked up at first hand if you understand what I mean by that; in one transaction only by the 'direct buyers for the best brewery firms, such as Alsopps or Bass', and firms of that class?—Yes.

519. You agree with me there?—Yes; and I get those returns.

520. That is exactly what I wanted. Then that shows that the barley that is left for the dealers and jobbers to manipulate is more particularly of an inferior class to those best classes which are picked up as you agree with me directly by the Messrs. Bass and Alsopp's own agents or buyers?-We know the people who come on the market, and there is a great deal of buying for those people; and I also get the returns of the other qualities of barley as well.

Mr. Talbot.

521. Do you think that the failure on the part of certain dealers to make returns is such as to affect the corn average ?—I do not.

522. Would you say that the fact that you have never been obliged to sue for a penalty would show that as a rule the returns have been correctly made?-Yes, I think so. The penalty is not pressed oppressively.

523. If there were any considerable amount of default that would show itself, would it not, in the amount of penalty sued for?-Certainly.

524. But there is no laxity on your part in suing for penalties?-No; I place myself under the Board of Trade the moment that a difficulty arises. I do my best to get the returns.

525. With regard to the market that you inspect, how does it compare with other markets in the kingdom?-It is rather high.

526. Would you say that it is the highest and most important of all the markets in the kingdom?—No, it is not the highest with regard to wheat certainly; Guildford is a higher market.

527. How would it compare with regard to the other kinds of grain ?-I think it would be

Mr. Talbot-continued.

[Continued.

rather high with regard to other grain than otherwise.

528. Would you say that it is one of the most important markets in the kingdom?--Yes.

529. Do you think that your returns show correctly the cost to the consumer 2-Yes, the consumer being the miller.

530. But the actual consumer, the public?Yes, I should say so.

531. Would not the cost to the consumer be a little less than your returns show? --No. Mr. Milnes Gaskell.

fits in the trade are infinitesimal now-a-days; 532. Would it not be a little more ?-The prowheat is sold at 13 d. a quarter now-a-days. Chairman.

533. Have you any idea of the amount of wheat, barley, and oats sold at Mark-lane during the year; have you any conception in your mind?-Foreign or English do you mean. 534. English? No, I never have totalled them.

535. What relation to the amount of English grain sold would 150,000 quarters in a year bear in your opinion at Mark lane; should you imagine that the amount sold was much more than that. You have told us that your market is attended by 4,000 or 5,000 people three days in the week?-Not every day; that is the Monday more especially.

536. A number of these men of course trade in foreign grain ?—Yes, they may be buyers and sellers.

537. You could not give us any estimate of the number of people trading in English grain; but supposing anyone asked you what proportion 150,000 quarters would bear to the amount of English grain sold in Mark-lane what should yon say? It is materially more than that.

538. Should you say it would be twice as much? I should think so.

539. In the whole county of Middlesex, including every grain market, or taking Mark-lane and Uxbridge alone, those two, should you think 150,000 quarters is far below the amount sold? I should think it was.

540. That is the amount returned from these markets?-It is below the amount no doubt.

541. What proportion would 48,000 quarters of barley bear in your opinion to the amount sold in London and Uxbridge, a small or a large proportion?—I should think rather small than otherwise.

542. What do you think of 26,000 quarters of oats; would that be large or small? I should think it would be a fair proportion with regard

to oats.

543. What should you think of 3,500 quarters of wheat as the transaction of a single day's sale in the whole of London in November; would it be a large or a small amount ?—I should call it a very fair amount.

544. What would you think of the same amount of barley ?--In November it would be about a fair quantity I should think.

545. What would you think of 281 quarters of oats?--It depends very much upon circumstances; sometimes there might be a good many oats; I should think more oats than that.

Chairman.

551. ARE you Inspector of Corn Returns for Denbigh ?-Yes.

552. Is there much corn grown in that part of the country?-In the Vale of Clwyd there is a very fair quantity, but not what we call a large quantity compared with some districts; for instance, the Eastern Counties or Cambridgeshire.

553. Have you been able to form any opinion of the amount of grain sold in Denbigh market in the year? It is about four years, I think, since the division was broken, and I being the excise ride officer had to take charge of the division as well, so that the Corn Returns came into my hands. I have always thought the amount of corn returned to me has been rather small.

554. What is your process of taking the returns; what arrangements have you?- I have to attend in the market from two to four.

555. What do you do when you are there? I keep my eye on the farmers and on the dealers, to see who is showing samples; and I ask the price occasionally myself. At first I could get the price from everyone. Now they know who I am, and sometimes they will tell me, sometimes they will not.

556. Do they give you the returns?—I believe the dealers do invariably; there is no return at Rhyl, 12 miles away, and no return at Ruthin, eight miles away.

557. How many returns do you think you get on an average?-For the last three months I have not had a single return.

558. Then you cannot say that they are very zealous in giving the returns?-There is no corn being sold there. At the present time you will not see a sample in the market.

559. At what times of the year is grain sold? The farmers in that neighbourhood generally clear out, most of the small ones at any rate, just after harvest; they tell me, from conversation I have had, that it pays them better; they get a better price then than by keeping it.

560. Is there much grain sold in November in Denbighshire?-I think so.

561. There is a good deal in Denbighshire, is there?-There is a good deal of corn grown, but not a great deal of it brought to Denbigh to be sold.

562. Is there much sold in Denbigh in November? I think so.

563. Should you think this a fair average of the amount sold in a week in November: "Wheat,

Chairman-continued.

Oats, no

no wheat; barley, 124 quarters. oats"?-Is that in Denbigh alone? 564. Yes. Is that a fair sample of the amount that would be sold in this market?-I think so, taking the year round.

66 no

565. That is to say that it is a fair sample of the business done to find "no wheat" and oats" sold at all?—Yes.

566. Is there much grain sold in February; not so much, I suppose?-There might be some bought just then; there are two or three maltsters in the place, and if they run short they will buy what they can get hold of.

567. There are fair transactions in grain in Denbigh in February ?—I cannot speak for certain.

568. You are inspector, you ought to know; have you had any returns in that month?—I think so, speaking from memory.

569. Have you any record in your books?-I have not the ledger with me.

570. If you found any return for a week given in February, "Wheat, no wheat; barley, no barley; oats, no oats," do you think that would be a fair record of the amount of dealings done in grain ?-For one particular week in February there might not be any; but was there none in February at all?

571. In a particular week taken in November there was only a return made of one kind of grain, and that, barley; no wheat or oats?There are only about four dealers who attend the market in Denbigh.

572. And yet Denbigh is selected as one of the returning markets?—Yes, I know no other there; at Ryhl there are none, at Ruthin none. At Wrexham there are, but then that is 30 miles off.

573. Has the growing of grain diminished very much in Wales?-I think there is more pasture now than there was six years ago.

574. Have you compared the amount of grain sold in Denbigh with the acreage of grain in the neighbourhood?—I have not.

Mr. Gray.

575. Do you know how many markets there are from which the Corn Returns are taken in the whole county of Denbigh ?—No, I do not; I know that returns are taken at Denbigh; I do not know of any other place in Denbighshire, but Wrexham.

576. At

576. At Wrexham they are taken too?-Yes. There will be considerably more corn sold in Wrexham than in Denbigh; it is a much better market altogether.

Chairman.

577. Do you consider that this accords with your experience that there are in Denbighshire nearly 9,000 acres of wheat?-In which year?

578. In 1887 that there are 16,000 acres of barley, and that there are of oats 29,600, nearly 30,000?—Yes.

579. Should you consider these returns at all proportionate to the amount grown in the county? The farmers do not all attend Denbigh Market. 580. What market do they attend? The other markets I suppose. There is not much market at Rhyl; there is Ruthin and Wrexham.

581. But where do they take their produce to? They tell me that they consume a great amount of corn themselves for cattle feeding.

Mr. Gray.

582. The Chairman has been trying to find out whether the amounts that are given as having been returned at Wrexham and Denbigh do bear primâ facie a reasonable proportion to the total growth of the county ?-I think you would get (it is my impression, I cannot speak for certain) considerably more returns from Wrexham than Denbigh. I was stationed in Wrexham, myself, for 15 months before coming to Denbigh; and I know that the excise officer there had much more trouble in making up his returns every week than I have. I do not know what the proportion is of the returns, but there is more corn sold there.

583. I do not think it is fair to ask you questions with reference to a market of which are not inspector?-It is only my own opinion, which I might form of course.

584. It appears that there is a very large amount of corn grown that does not appear in the returns given of these two markets; and if I were to ask you if that is really so, how you would account for it; would your answer be that you considered that a large proportion of the corn grown in the county of Denbigh is consumed at home, and never goes to market at all?—I think I may state as a matter of fact that a great deal of it is bought privately. Mr. Angel, a malster and brewer at Denbigh, buys the greater part of his privately; it never does come market at all.

to

585. I hope you will not think that I am at all examining you to find any fault with you, because it is very much the state of things everywhere; but what we want to get at is facts; and you have just told me that you think that the nonappearance of some of this corn is owing to its being bought privately by such people as malsters; no doubt it is so ?-Yes, and owing to a great deal being consumed at home, which is perhaps not the best corn.

586. Have you seen one of these papers: "Notices to buyers of British corn"?--Yes.

587. Did you see there that there is a provision that people who buy off the market are to be looked up and asked for returns ?-Yes. I asked Mr. Angel, the malster of Denbigh, and he said

Mr. Gray-continued.

[Continued.

he had no objection to give it to me, but that he had not given it to the previous officer.

588. He did not do it because he was not in the habit of doing it?-Yes; he is a very fair dealing man; he would not refuse to make a return at any time of any corn he buys.

589. And there are, no doubt, one or two other gentlemen, malsters, in the neighbourhood who bought privately?-Ile is the only one whose attention I have had to call to it. I heard that he bought it and that it did not come to the market; there are four malsters altogether. There are no millers of any size in Denbigh ; there is one small miller.

590. There are four brewers in your district? -I have five brewers in the station now; one is a very small one who buys malt from Mr. Angel; so there are only four brewers and malsters who buy corn.

591. Do you think any of these brewers and people who buy corn think they are doing anything that is really blameable when they fail or neglect to make a return; or do you think they rather think they are doing the same slipshoddy thing which everybody else does ?-If I find them not making returns, I call upon them for the return; and, of course, if they would not make the returns the circumstance would be reported.

592. But you are not sure that you get them all? No, I do not think I should be safe in stating that; I think in all stations there will be some who do not make returns. It is a very small quantity that is sold in Denbigh; and if you come there on market-day at this time of year you might not see a single sample; and just after harvest you might see from three to four samples on a fair day, when more people are there than on an ordinary market-day.

593. I daresay you know the quantity of corn generally grown in your neighbourhood, and no doubt a considerable proportion of that must be consumed at home; what would you say is the corn principally grown, wheat, barley or oats?Oats principally, but there is more barley brought

to market.

594. Oats and barley form the two principal articles? Yes, that is brought to Denbigh Market.

595. What is grown principally? -In the neighbourhood of Denbigh, barley and oats are grown considerably more than wheat, I think.

596. If barley met with a bad season, rain in harvest time, so that generally speaking it was damaged, but there was a little, exceptionally little of it, got up in good order, which would be probably sold to the brewers, the good barley or the bad?-I do not think they would buy any bad, if they could get the other at a fair price, unless they were short of buying the other, and, they must have something to carry on business.

597. Then you think the probability is that the worse the barley was, the more likely it would be to be consumed at home and the better barley bought up by the brewers?-Certainly.

598. Do you not think that the same thing would apply to oats. Are they small farmers in yonr neighbourhood?-There are a great many.

599. Would you think that a small farmer having one part of his oats at the end of harvest plump and very good, and another part inferior,

Mr. Gray-continued. would be likely to sell the good oats which would command a higher price and keep the more indifferent ones for home consumption; or do think he would sell the inferior ones and you keep those that commanded the highest price at home? From my experience of the small farmers at Denbigh I should say that they would sell whatever they thought would pay them the best. If they get a fair price for the inferior ones they would let them go; or if they brought both to market they would sell them both.

600. You said that there must be a considerable amount consumed at home? - Yes.

601. And you are not able to give an opinion in reference to oats whether they sell the good and keep the bad at home, or vice versâ?-From the samples I have seen they have been very decent oats that have been sold.

Sir Michael Hicks Beach.

602. You have some knowledge perhaps of the way country brewers purchase their malting barley at other places besides Denbigh? I have not had a deal of experience in watching the Corn Returns except at Denbigh and Wrexham, where I was for 15 months before I went to Denbigh; I used to go occasionally with the officer to see what they were doing.

603. There were brewers in Wrexham ?-Yes. 604. Do they buy their malting barley principally privately?-I do not think so. There was a large brewer at that time whose business has been sold, and the brewery business discontinued; it is carried on at Burton by the same firm but the large brewery at Wrexham is closed, which belonged to the late Peter Walker, and that has made a considerable difference to the transactions at Wrexham.

Mr. Talbot.

605. Practically there is hardly any wheat grown in your neighbourhood, is there?-There is a fair proportion, but not so much as there is of barley and cats.

606. Will you say what is a fair proportion ?That is actually in Denbighshire. Denbigh is a very small parish, and does not go much in the direction of Ruthin way.

607. I did not speak of the whole county of Denbigh, but in your neighbourhood?-In proportion to other crops there is very little.

608. But absolutely?-There is very little. 609. So that you do not know how these returns affect wheat?-I do not know. I do not think I have had above half-a-dozen returns of wheat during the whole year.

610. Have you had any complaints of the way in which the returns have been made?---One of the dealers who buys rather an inferior quality complains, and says, that he thinks they take advantage of these returns, that they make returns of best corn and not of the other. I asked in what way. I wanted to get his reasons. That was six months ago when the agitation first cropped up in Denbigh. But he buys inferior stuff for grinding purposes; he does not buy it for malting.

611. Is it your opinion that any alteration in the method of taking returns would affect the general question of the corn averages?—I do not

[Continued.

Mr. Talbot-continued. see how you could get a better average than you have, provided all the officers look after them sharply in the market. I do in Denbigh. Several farmers tell me that I am too sharp: that I do not give them a chance to sell before I go up to look at the sample. Denbigh, of course, is a small place. The market is a covered-in place, and there is a box for me to be in; but they do not go down there at all. If I kept in that box I should not see one sample sold in a year. I have to be up and down in the square to see the farmers and dealers; they do not go down in the covered market.

612. I daresay you have had complaints, and that there is a good deal of sore feeling in Wales on the subject?--The farmers in Wales say that you get a return of the best corn, and do not get a return of the inferior; and it is impossible to get a return of inferior if they do not sell it.

613. Have you any suggestion to make of any improvement in the mode of taking the return which would meet tithe-rents?-I cannot see how you can alter it to make any improvement. I believe the dealers make their returns well with scarcely any exception. There are two instances. that I mentioned. I called upon a gentleman who said he bought the barley privately, because I saw the barley being delivered at the malthouse; he said that he had not got it all in yet, and that he should fill up the return and let me

have it.

Mr. Cornwallis West.

614. Is it not a notorious fact that the farmers

do complain at the present moment that the general average is much too high for them, inasmuch as they consume almost the whole of the corn on their farms and do not bring it for sale? -There are only one or two that I have heard that from, and when I asked them the average they could not tell me; they said it was high because they had heard someone else say so.

615. Denbigh you say is not a place where a great deal of grain is sold in the year?-Yes.

616. Do you know why it should have been chosen as one of the towns in which averages should be taken?--I do not, except that it has the name of being a very good market town.

617. How are the returns made, by weight or measure?-By measure and by weight. 618. What is the weight?-A hobbit of barley is 147 lbs.

619. Who calculates that?--I have to calculate it. I have some returns in my pocket. I am sorry now that I did not bring the big ledger; I believe

it

goes back a good many years; it is a tremendously big book, and it is getting full now; but I picked up these two returns this morning (producing the same). One is a return of barley, and the other of wheat, and on these two it shows the working that I did at the time. One of the returns was received on 10th September 1887, and the other on 5th March 1887 (handing in the same).

620. That is the way you reduce them to the Imperial bushel?-It is 168 lbs. of wheat to the hobbit, and 60 lbs, to the bushel, 147 lbs. of barley to the hobbit, and 50 lbs. to the bushel, and 105 lbs. the hobbit of oats, and 39 lbs. to the bushel.

621. You said just now that you did not con