That answer has very often been given to the inspector when he has inquire of persons whom he has suppo-ed to have been buying corn, and not making returns.

229. It is your experience then that the buyers of corn do try to evade giving the return?—I think so sometimes, but generally through negligence rather than from a desire to evade giving it. 230. Because they would not take the trouble? -I think that might be the reason, but the buyers, for the most part, are known to the inspector; he is stationed in the town, and he knows almost every body attending the market: the principle men, at any rate, who buy to any extent; and certainly if he observed any man who attended the market constantly and bought grain, he would speak to him and serve him with a notice, warning him that the consequence of continuing to buy corn without making a return is, liability to a penalty of 20 l., under the Act 45 & 46 Vict. c. 37. The inspectors generally have a supply of these notices with them for that purpose (handing in a copy of the notice). This notice was prepared in 1883, soon after the last Act was passed. One of our supervisors reported that he had reason to believe that some persons failed to make returns because they were not quite certain as to the class of persons that must make the return. He suggested that a notice must be given, and Mr. Giffen prepared a notice, and we sent an ample supply to the country, to all the stations, and they were very freely circulated amongst all the buyers,

231. Are you aware of any instances of that penalty being carried out?—No, I am not aware of any.

232. But these buyers would not,in your opinion, be likely to give these returns regularly, without some pressure on the part of your inspector? -I am informed that many buyers do give them punctually and freely; I should not like to say every buyer does that.

233. What check is there upon this return? -The inspector, if he had reason to believe that the law was evaded, would inquire of the seller, and give the seller a printed form, such as I have here (producing a form), to fill up the name of the place, and other particulars about the corn sold by him; but the seller is not obliged to make the return; it is voluntary on his part. And I do not think, practically, that there is any very great utility in it. I think the best reason for supposing that the returns are fairly collected, is that the inspector is a man of character and responsibility, and he feels, I think, that it is his duty to see that these returns are made; and if he has reason to believe that they are not made, he puts himself in communication at once with the buyers, and requests them to do it.

234. Still you cannot reconcile that statement with the fact of these numerous nil returns ?Unless I had some of the facts before me, I could not speak as to any particular case.

235. Does this plan of taking returns involve much expense?-It involves very little expense; it is simply incidental, and for some rents of offices. In every returning town a place of some sort is provided for the receipt of returns,

Chairman-continued.

[Continued.

generally a small office near the market place; a small rent is paid for that, sometimes 47. or 5 l., but not more; and if such an office is not found, a stand is provided at the market place, for which we generally pay something to the clerk of the market, or to the corporation, perhaps 27. 2 s., so that ample provision is made. In addition to that a box is placed upon the stand into which they can drop the returns, if they do not find the inspector there, to deliver them to him personally. The total expenses is under 400 l. per annum. Mr. Gray.

236. Whose duty would it be to take proceedings against merchants who failed to make these returns?-The Board of Trade. If it came to the knowledge of the inspector that returns were not made, and he found that it was so, he would report all the circumstances to the Assistant Secretary of the Board of Trade.

237. Do you know how many markets there are from which these returns should be made? -One hundred and eighty-seven.

238. There are 187 inspectors, therefore?— Minus three; there are 184 excise officers who act as corn inspectors.

239. Then there are 187 markets from which returns should be made, and there 184 inspectors?-Yes, under the Inland Revenue. There are three places where inspectors are appointed specially.

240. Roundly speaking, there are 184 inspectors to make these returns?-Under the Inland Revenue; then there are three others, one for London, one for Oxford, and one for Cambridge; the Oxford and Cambridge men are appointed by the Vice-Chancellor, and the inspector for London is appointed I believe by the Corporation; that makes up the 187.

241. You know that there is a penalty of 20 l. which may be inflicted for negligence or nonreturning?—Yes.

242. How many years have you been in this official position?-Seven years.

243. During those seven years, have you known of one case of, I will not say a fine of 20 7. having been imposed, but of any fine having been imposed, or of any penalty having been inflicted?—I am not aware of any, because the cases would not be reported to me, or the Board of Inland Revenue; they would be reported to the Board of Trade, and that Board would take the proceedings.

244. But you are not aware of any?—No.

245. I see here in the form of notice which you handed up to me just now this sub-section three, "Every person who is the owner or part owner of any carriages carrying goods or pas sengers for hire to or from, or within any such town," is also a person or party called upon to make a return?-Yes, a common carrier having a good many horses.

246. May I ask you what the object of that provision is?-To secure a return of corn bought by that individual.

247. This means those people, carriers, and so on, who have bought corn?—Yes; nobody else is required to make a return but the buyers.

248. It

248. It does not mean a railway company, or anything of that sort ?-No, I should say not; it means persons living in the town, and keeping a large number of horses.

249. Then they would be considered for the purposes of this Act as under the category of buyers?-Yes, that is how I understand it. 250. You say that is how you understand it; but is it so?--It is so.

Chairman.

251. Have you a copy of your instructions here?-Yes.

252. Will you hand it in?-Yes (handing in the same.)

Mr. Gray.

253. Have you noticed any returns as having been made from parties of this description?—I have not. The returns never pass through my hands; the returns are kept by the inspector of the town at his station; a summary of those returns is sent every week to the Board of Trade; personally I do not see them.

254. Then personally you have no power of checking irregularities in connection with the carrying out of these provisions?--Yes. Supposing that an inspector were careless in making out his averages, we have a check upon him in this way when he gets a return, he has to reduce it to the imperial measure; he gets the return by weight very likely, and the supervisor of the district checks these calculations. When the inspector has dealt with the returns of a certain buyer, and reduced the weights to measure, he records it in a ledger, a book of this kind (describing the same). When the supervisor visits the place, he sees the returns and checks the entries in the ledger; so that we can secure that these returns are carefully dealt with by the inspector, because the superior officer goes in and checks them. Moreover a summary is exhibited in the market place every week (a copy of that sent to the Board of Trade) for the information of the public. Supposing there were but one buyer, he would see exactly whether his return were right or not. And that return must be kept exhibited during the whole week; if it were defaced and the inspector knew it, it would be his duty to replace it, to give the public, and the buyers especially, an opportunity of seeing what the result of the market was.

255. Have all the returns made for that purpose to come before your office?-No, they do not come to our office at Somerset House; the returns are kept at the town where they are received, the actual returns. A summary of them only is sent to the Board of Trade; they are preserved by the inspectors for reference if

Mr. Gray-continued.

[Continued.

257. Then every return of this sort has to pass through your office?-Yes, or rather into the hands of our superior.

258. And you merely have to deal with the accuracy of the way in which the figures are carried out?—Yes, that is so.

259. But it would not come under your Department whether there ought to have been a dozen names in this column of sellers or six ?— It is the inspector's duty to see that the buyers make the returns. If you would allow me, I would read some sections from general orders issued by the Board of Inland Revenue, which will show what steps are taken to endeavour to secure a faithful return of the corn bought. When any complaint is made by any gentleman in the country, who perhaps writes to the Board of Trade to say that, to his knowledge, certain returns are not made, inquiry is made at once by the Board of Inland Revenue; and after that inquiry it sometimes appears necessary to give the officers in the country warning, and from time to time orders are issued by the Board of Inland Revenue, termed general orders, in which a notice is given. In this order of the 9th of May, 1883, this is after the instructions were issued, and after it was reported that some buyers had neglected or had forgotten to make returns, because they were not quite certain whether they were called upon to do so by law, there is this paragraph: "A form of notice to buyers of British corn relative to the returns required to be made, has been prepared by the Board of Trade." Inspectors of Corn Returns must take care that each buyer of British corn who attends any market on account of which returns. are required to be made is supplied with a copy of this notice. The inspector should make a record of the delivery of each notice in a properly prepared part of store the register, showing the date, the name and residence of the buyer, and the signature of the officer." Then I have here this order which was issued on the 21st of June in the same year: "All violations of the Corn Returns Act 45 & 46 Vict. c. 37, are to be reported by the officers who act as inspectors of corn returns, and forwarded through the supervisor to the Assistant Secretary, Commercial Department, Board of Trade."

66

260. What we want to know is whether those returns are made any practical use of, or whether there is anything in this penalty of 20 1. which to your knowledge has never been inflicted?I may say that the discipline of the department is fairly strict, and the orders of the Board are generally carried out by all their officers with punctuality and strictness, speaking generally.

261. Who are the inspectors generally; in many cases I think they are also officers of Excise, are they not?-They are all officers of Excise.

262. Their emoluments do not, I think, depend in any way at all upon the business-like way in which these forms are returned?-They get no emolument at all for this work; arrangements are made for it in carrying out the work of the stations.

263. As you know, this Committee is interested in examining the general working of these

Mr. Gray-continued. arrangements in connection with the averages as applying to tithe rent-charge; but I suppose there are other objects besides those which are gained by these returns?-For statistical purposes I apprehend they would be useful; but we have not anything to do with that.

264. Could you give me your idea as to why all this labour is taken with the returns at all? -Simply for the purpose of getting the true average price of British corn. This is supposed to be the simplest and most effective way of getting that.

265. You know that one of the objects for which this trouble is taken is the one that I have mentioned, namely: its connection with the tithe rent-charge?-Quite so.

266. Do you know of any other specific object? -Except what I have just mentioned, namely: that it probably might be regarded as useful for statistical purposes, with which we have nothing to do. I mean to say that it does not come under our view. What our officers are expected to do is, to secure a fair return of the average price of British corn sold in their markets. I believe that object is fairly secured; I believe some returns are not made that should be made; but supposing that two or three returns are left out, unless there is some bias, it might not affect the average.

267. What ought to happen in the case of a sample of corn being re-sold two or three times in a market or markets; for very often, as you know, a merchant is at one market on Tuesday and at another on Wednesday say?-I suppose you get some advance on the grower's price at every sale.

268. But, according to regulation, should or should not every re-sale be entered?-Every sale

should be entered.

Mr. Cornwallis West.

269. I think you told us just now that the buyers often make no return on the ground that it is foreign corn; do you instruct the inspectors who have to look into this, to find out whether it is foreign corn or whether it is not?-Not specifically in that form. The general instruction is that they must take care that all British corn is returned.

270. And it is not, in fact, part of their duty to find out, or to be certain, whether it is or is not foreign corn?-I think their duty is involved in the statement that they must find out whether all the British corn is returned. I could not say that they go to the sack mouth and examine the corn, and make specific inquiries as to whether it is British corn or foreign corn.

271. You said just now that the same parcels of corn were returned very often twice or three times at the same or other markets; can you tell us to what extent this enhances the value of the rent-charge, taking the question of tithe into consideration?-I understood that the question was whether the corn might not be sold at different markets; I did not make the statement that, as a matter of fact, it was sold three or four times over; but I understood the question to be as to whether it might not be sold at different markets several times over.

Mr. Gray.

[Continued.

280. Part of the general duty of an Inland Revenue officer is to make these returns?— Yes, part of their general work.

281. If they perform any of their work, either this or any other portion, badly, I presume they would be removed for misconduct?-The Board would deal with them according to the degree of culpability.

282. Have you received any complaints of your inspectors?-Very rarely. Occasionally we have received complaints through the Board of Trade that returns did not appear to be made for certain places; and then inquiries have been ordered, and the Board of Trade have been made acquainted with the result.

283. Is it your opinion that there is a general satisfaction with regard to the work that is being done by the inspectors ?-Do you mean satisfaction in the mind of the public or of the Board of Trade?

284. Both ?-I think the Board of Trade are satisfied, speaking generally, that the returns are very fairly made.

285. And with regard to the public, have you received any complaints from individuals in different parts of the country of the method in which the inspectors work?-There was a complaint made some time ago to the Board of Trade

that

13 July 1888.]

Mr. Stanley Leighton-continued.

that Returns had not been made for a certain district. The Board of Trade forwarded that complaint to the Board of Inland Revenue, and an inquiry was made and the result reported.

286. But those complaints are very few?Yes. And on the occasion of that complaint, in the issue of the next general order, there was a strict injunction to the officers to be more careful. 287. I understand you to say that the inspectors never find it necessary to sue for the penalty of 207.?-The inspectors have never found it necessary within my knowledge. I could not say what prosecutions might have taken place.

288. I presume the conclusion you draw from that fact is, that there is very seldom a necessity for suing for a penalty?-That would be as much as to say that very seldom a return is not made that should be made. I could not say whether that is very seldom; i should be unable to make that statement. I think it is possible, taking the length and breadth of England, that a good many returns are not made that ought to be made; I am bound to say that.

289. Do you think that the fact which you have just mentioned is such as to alter the corn averages?-I think not.

290. You think that where there is a public record of the price of corn, the failure of these individual cases is of no importance?—I should imagine that they are not of great importance.

291. Can you tell me what is the whole value of the corn consumed in England; it is 37,000,000 l., is it not?-I could not state the figure accurately; but it might be that.

292. Could you give us roughly what is the comparative proportion of foreign to British corn? No, I could not.

293. Is it a fact that the importation of foreign corn governs the price?-The average price?

294. Yes? I should think it must materially affect it.

295. Have you any data by which you could in any way estimate the amount of corn which is not marketted?-No, we have no data whatever.

296. Do you agree that it is a large amount? -I should think there would be a large amount of corn not sold in the markets for which returns are made.

297. Would you think that it would be a large amount proportionately to the whole of the corn consumed in England?-The amount of corn sold, as shown by the returns, must bear only a comparatively small proportion to the total quantity of corn bought.

298. What I wanted to compare was, the ainount consumed at home with the whole amount which was consumed in England, sold in the English market?-I do not quite follow.

299. The contention is that so large an amount of corn is now consumed at home which used to be brought to the markets, that the price is higher than it would be otherwise; I want to know whether your opinion is that the amount consumed at home is so large as to affect the price of the market?-At the farmers' home do you mean?

[Continued.

Mr. Stanley Leighton-continued. 300 Yes?-Yes; I think it does affect the market, because the corn consumed at home is of an inferior quality to that which is brought to market. I should think in respect of barley, that a good deal of it would not be fit for market, for malting purposes, which is very likely used at home for grinding. The same remark would apply to wheat.

301. I am talking of the price of barley to the public; would it affect the price of barley to the public?-I certainly think that it would affect it, because what is sent into the market is of a superior quality to that consumed at home.

302. Now I must press you upon this point: Can you give us any idea of the amount of English-grown corn compared with foreign corn which is consumed in England?-I could not speak to the amount.

303. But the amount of foreign corn is very much larger, is it not?-I should say so; I can give you the exact amount of British corn estimated as the produce of last year, namely, wheat, 76,224,940 bushels, barley, 69,948,266 bushels, oats, 150,789,416 bushels.

304. Is the local variation in the price of corn considerable ?-I could not say it is considerable; because it does not come under my notice except from reading in the newspapers; I have no special reason for examination.

Chairman.

395. You are only engaged in directing the mechanical part of the work;-Yes.

Mr. Stanley Leighton.

306. Are you unable to give me any information as to local variations, whether large or small? -That is so.

307. Is the price of corn to the consumer practically the same all over England?—It is pretty much the same.

308. The re-sales exhibit the price to the consumer, do they not?-Yes.

309. If you were only to consider the first sale, you would not have the price of corn to the consumer?-In some cases it would be the price of corn to consumer; it would depend altogether upon the circumstances. Suppose there were no re-sale, I suppose sometimes the grower's price is the real market price. If he sends his barley or wheat to the market it might not be re-sold.

310. But what I want to bring you to is this: Is not the real price to the consumer the price after it has passed through many hands, from the farmer to the dealer, and so on?-The last price of course is the price to the consumer.

311. The Corn Returns from 1791 have always exhibited, and have always been intended to exhibit, the price to the consumer, have they not? -I should suppose so.

312. Are the returns made by the buyers tested by returns made by the sellers?—They are sometimes.

313. Is not one of your orders to your inspectors in these words, "In order to check the returns made by the buyer the officer is from time to time to wait upon the principal sellers, and furnish them with blank forms requesting

Mr. Stanley Leighton-continued. them to enter there on a list of their prices"?Yes.

314. Then the prices which are returned to you are tested by the sellers' prices ?-They are Occasionally so tested.

315. Do you find that in those cases where they are tested, there is any large difference between the sellers' price and the price returned by the dealer?-I am not aware that anything of that sort has come to our notice.

316. You think, on the whole, that the growers' price and the sellers' price are pretty much the same?-It must depend very much upon the circumstances of different localities. I think the growers' price, in some places, is the market price; but in the case of corn factors I do not know.

317. Are you able to suggest any means by which it would be practicable to get trusworthy returns of corn consumed on the farm?-I think it would be extremely difficult to get that. We have found a great deal of difficulty in getting the agricultural returns from the farmers. Those returns were voluntary, of course. And I apprehend that it would be very objectionable to the farmers to institute inquiries of that kind.

318. Was the whole of this subject exhaustively considered by the Royal Commission in 1881?-It was considered.

319. Was the Act of 1882 founded on the reconsideration of the whole subject? I be lieve so..

320. Can you suggest any amendment to the Act of 1882?-No, I am not able to suggest

321. Your attention, no doubt, has been called in framing these statistics to Wales; I want to ask you whether it is not a fact that, comparatively, very little of the corn grown in Wales reaches the markets; if you are aware whether that is not a very well-known fact? I do not know that fact with sufficient certainty to make a statement upon it.

322. But if it were the case, do consider you that it would be hard on the Welsh farmers if they had to pay in proportion to the price of first-class wheat grown in other parts of the country?-1 should think it would be rather hard, certainly. I am bound to say that.

Mr. Stanley Leighton.

323. I must ask you the question whether the price to the consumer in Wales is not precisely I the same as in England?-I could not say, as have not the list of prices before me; and I do not remember whether it is the same or not.

324. But if the corn average is the price to the consumer, what hardship would there be in Wales if the same plan were adopted there as in England? If the average price of the grain sold in Wales is very much below the average price at which grain is sold in other places, it would appear that the tithe-payer in Wales would not stand upon precisely the same footing as the tithe-payer in other parts of England.

325. But if the price of corn is lower in Wales, the price to the consumer would be lower too?— In that case of course the tithe would be lower.

[Continued.

Mr. Stanley Leighton-continued. 326. I am not talking of the tithe. I am talking of the cost of bread to the consumer. If the cost of corn is permanently cheaper in Wales, and it would be a hardship that it should be calculated according to the higher averages of England, I ask you with regard to the consumer, does he get his bread cheaper in Wales on account of the lower price of corn?-I should think so somewhat cheaper.

Mr. Charles Acland.

327. Should you ever accept returns from sellers instead of from buyers?-Never.

328. Do the persons who bring the returns distinguish as a rule between British corn and foreign corn; do they for instance ever give you prices for foreign corn?-No; British corn only. 329. And they confine themselves to British corn?—Yes.

330. Do you know why the distinction was made?--I suppose in fixing the rent-charge under the Tithe Commutation Act, it only had reference to British corn.

331. In those Acts of Parliament certainly under which you work that is the case; you do not know what the reason of that was I suppose ? -I could not undertake to say the reason.

332. Do you know whether there is any great difference between the price of British corn and the price of foreign corn?-I could not say with certainity; I have to do simply with the machinery by which these returns are collected, and I have not prepared myself to answer these questions.

333. If the purchaser in ignorance brought a Return of foreign corn, your inspectors would be instructed not to take that?-They would certainly reject it, if they knew it was foreign corn.

334. Do you know whether there is any difference practically found between the price of corn purchased for the first time, and the price of corn purchased afterwards on re-sale?-That would not come under the notice of the inspector in any way.

335. He does not inquire whether it is a resale or a first sale ?—No, he does not; he knows nothing about that.

336. Is he instructed to form his average from all the sales given him each market?--Yes.

337. And for each day throughout the week? -Yes.

338. Are there any other similar returns which your inspectors collect, besides the returns for corn?-They collect the agricultural returns. 339. Is that the case all over the country?

Yes.

All the returns of the acreage, the different crops sown and the stock kept.

340. How do they arrive at them; do they travel round the country for the purpose?-They issue blank schedules at a certain time of the year, generally in May, to all the farmers, with a request that they will be good enough to fill up the schedule and return them to the officer who sent them, and whose address is printed outside.

341. The inspectors were originally employed as officers of excise, were they not?-Yes.

342. How many years is it since they have been employed to collect these returns?-I should think over 40 years ever since 1842.

343. Therefore,