1. WHAT is your official connection with the Corn Returns question?-I one of the Assistant Secretaries of the Board of Trade, and in that capacity since the Corn Returns Act, 1882, I have been acting as Controller of the Corn Returns by direction of the Board of Trade. Previously to that I was also Controller of the Corn Returns under the Board of Trade in addition to my other offices. 2. You are well known also as an eminent statistician; and as a member of the Statistical Society, I suppose you have a high regard for these corn averages with reference to their statistical value?-It is hardly for me to say what my reputation is; but I have taken an interest in statistical matters and a great deal of interest in these corn averages, on account of their general statistical value. 3. You do not come before us as a farmer, or one having practical experience in the purchase and sale of grain ?—No, not at all. 4. Do you consider that there is any essential difficulty in obtaining and publishing official prices? I think when it comes to obtaining statistics of prices officially, very great difficulties arise; and the source of a great many of these difficulties is the indefiniteness of the meaning of price itself when you attempt official records of prices. I find in dealing with prices, that sometimes what is merely a statement by a dealer in the market as to the price at which he is willing to deal, gets into the official records as the price of the market at the given date. That is one of the things that becomes a foundation of statistics afterwards; and it is quite pos Chairman-continued. sible that there may be no transactions at that price at which the dealer has professed himself willing to deal; that has sometimes happened. Then prices are sometimes statements by experts connected with the markets, as to what have been the current prices at which goods have been exchanged on a particular day. There is no direct connection between them and the actual purchases and sales; but they are statements of opinion, no doubt by people well qualified, as to what the dealings in the market have been. And it is only in such a case as the Corn Returns, of which we have experience, that attempts have been made to go something beyond that, and to obtain records of actual purchases and sales, the average of which it is hoped will approximate more nearly to the prices at which business is really done, than the prices obtained by any other method. But in any case, what Government has to take care of when it comes to obtaining prices, is to settle very definitely what is meant by price, and to make sure that in the publication a price of one sort is not substituted for a price of another sort. But the difficulties are very great indeed. 5. You think the difficulty can be got over?I think before going on to the question of how to get over the difficulties, it might be perhaps interesting if I give one or two instances of the different kinds of prices. I have mentioned, because I do not think it is quite generally understood, that a great many prices are not really records of transactions, but something quite different. That is not to say that such prices are not useful; but still we must understand what it is we are getting. With regard to this first class of prices, namely, the statements of dealers in the market of the prices at which they are willing to deal, I may call attention to some of the Stock Exchange prices which are issued every day. There is some record of the price of actual transactions made and published in the Stock Exchange but very many, if not almost all these quotations which we see in the morning are really not statements of actual business; but statements of what certain dealers in the market at a certain hour of the day profess themselves willing to do business at. I mention this because I happen to know from my own acquaintance with Stock Exchange matters in past times, that very often complaints were made that these quotations were not true, and that no business could have been done at the prices which the dealers were sending out. There have been such complaints. And these are not the only markets from which such quotations are sent out, but I think it may be said for certain that in times of great excitement about the price of any article, for instance at the time of the coal famine, the number of transactions at the extreme prices which are quoted and go about are very limited indeed. It happens continually in all markets that quotations go out from them which are very often extreme, and do not represent the average transactions. 6. What is the second class of prices to which you refer? The second class of prices is the most common, which are, no doubt, very good. They are statements by experts with reference to dealings in a particular market, of what has been the current range of business for the day. It seems to me that when experts make statements of that kind, and are trustworthy, you may get a tolerably good record of prices. But I may mention (what I suppose is pretty well known to a good many Members of this Committee) that there has been some discussion lately as to prices of this kind which have gone out, namely, the prices of meat; and that there is a great amount of dissatisfaction with the prices of meat which have been quoted, because there is a great difficulty in verifying and checking the opinion of experts as to the prices they give out. Still a great many of the prices of markets which are quoted from time to time substantially are of the same nature; that is to say, they are statements by experts acquainted with the facts, who give an opinion as a kind of jury on the subject. 7. What is your third class of prices ?—The third class of prices obtained for official purposes are the records of public institutions, such as hospitals and workhouses, and great departments of Government, like the Army and Navy, or the colleges and universities, different places of this kind, where those concerned actually record the purchases and sales which have been made over a given period, and the prices which have been paid; and these of course are prices of a much more trustworthy character, I should think, than the other kinds of prices which have been mentioned, although I am not saying but what the other prices in the absence of better, and perhaps for certain purposes, may be useful as well as these. Still there would be a great difficulty in making the prices of the first two classes which I have mentioned official (and there is great diffi Chairman-continued. [Continued. culty) owing to the difficulty of verifying them, and tracing the sources from which they come. 8. To which of these classes do the corn prices of England belong? They belong to the third class; and I do not think that there is any set of prices upon the same scale which have been collected in the same manner for so long a period. If they are at all fairly well done they ought to be a very good record of prices indeed, because they profess to be, and are beyond question, records of actual purchases and sales. 9. To which class do the prices of Scotland belong?--The corn prices of Scotland, as you will be able to judge afterwards when I give you the exact wording of the Scotch Act which regulates them, appear to me to belong to the second class. Although they are partly based upon returns of actual purchases and sales, they are also very largely the expression of opinion of the jury which is called to settle the prices from their own personal knowledge; and they are not to the same extent, I believe, as English prices, records of actual purchases and sales, and at any rate they are not records of purchases and sales obtained by what one may call the automatic method: ..., by a prescribed machinery which is constantly at work. 10. Can you give us the history of the corn prices of England in a short sketch ?—I have looked a little into the question of the origin of our present corn prices, and I may say that precisely the first time we hear of them is in the year 1770, but practically the first time from which there can be a continuous record is the year 1791. But I have looked into the matter a little further, and it may be perhaps convenient to explain that these prices that we have now, and which are based upon returns of actual purchases and sales in the market, were preceded by attempts in the last century to obtain prices by what I would describe as the second method, that is to say, by the opinion of experts. And this takes us back to a very distant period indeed. There is an Act of 1 James II. c. 19, which instituted a mode of obtaining prices in order to determine the duties upon the import of grain at that time, which duties were instituted and made dependent on the price of the grain by the Act 22 Car. II. c. 13, which did not, however, establish any mode of obtaining the price. 11. What was the object of the first Act after the Act of 1770?-Before coming to that perhaps I may be allowed to continue the preliminary history. This Act of James II. was in 1685, and it prescribed as the method of obtaining prices, that the justices in the counties where corn was imported were to obtain the oaths of two experts, and from this and other sources were to declare the prices. I propose to put in that Act as part of the papers that I am giving you now, so that you will see exactly what it is. Then it was followed in 1732 by an Act of 5 George II., cap. 12, which enacts: "Whereas, by an Act made in the first year of the reign of His late Majesty King James the Second, intituled. An additional Act for the Improvement of Tillage, provision was made for examining and determining the common market prices of middling English corn and grain which nevertheless hath been found ineffectual; therefore for the better ascertaining ascertaining the common market prices of middling English corn and grain, and for preventing the fraudulent importation of foreign corn and grain, be it enacted by the King's most excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords spiritual and temporal and the Commons in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, that from and after the first day of June, one thousand seven hundred and thirty-two, it shall and may be lawful to and for all and every the justices of peace for the several and respective counties within that part of Great Britain called England and Wales and the town of Berwick-upon-Tweed wherein foreign corn or grain shall or may be hereafter imported, and they are hereby enjoined and required at every their Quarter Sessions to give in charge in open court to the Grand Jury there assembled to make inquiry and presentment upon their oaths of the common market prices of middling English corn and grain of the respective sorts and quantities mentioned in a previous Act of Charles the Second with reference to the improvement of tillage." The Act of Jmaes II. had empowered the justices to obtain the prices in a somewhat different manner; but this Act of 5 George II. prescribed that it was to be done by a presentment to the Grand Jury. I may say that so far as is known, this Act was not very effectual in preserving prices for statistical purposes. I do not know exactly what happened in particular districts in England in the last century. I believe that these Acts were in force in some way or other, because there is no doubt that considerable sums were paid upon the export of grain during the last century, in which these prices would be used. Still, there is hardly any record of the prices, and that apparently was the beginning of the Act of 1770 to which I have referred, which enacted that there was to be a register of prices; and that for the first time, so far as I can see, is an enactment for maintaining an official register. Chairman-continued. [Continued. little further, and appointed inspectors of Corn 15. Scotland was included in the former Acts, and left out in the later Acts?-Scotland was included in the former Acts, but in a different way from England; and it was left out in the later Acts altogether; I think that Scotland is not mentioned in any of the Acts after the Act of 1804. 16. What was the next step in the way of legislation on the subject?—I think perhaps before mentioning that, I should state, as it may be interesting to the Committee, that the preamble to the Act of 1770 sets forth that the reason of it is that "a register of prices at which corn is sold in the several counties of Great Britain will be of public and general advantage," apart from the special purposes prescribed by the Act for which it was used. Then the consolidating Act 12. We will only trouble you to give us the of 1791 states that it will be "highly useful that salient points; what were the salient points in an account should be obtained of the prices at the second Act, the Act of 1791?-The Act of which the several sorts of corn and of oatmeal 1791, I believe, was originated, according to an are sold in order that a register thereof may be author of the present century, who was a former formed and published for the information and Secretary of the Board of Trade, Mr. Chalmers, benefit of Her Majesty's subjects." These in consequence of the defects of the Act of 1770. phrases are repeated in special clauses with Mr. Chalmers wrote a book on the strength of reference to the Scotch prices of that time. England, which went through several additions, Then the next step was an Act of 9 Geo. IV., the edition I quote from being 1804. He states, which fixed the number of towns at 140, I think, "The register of corn prices began indeed in there having been a few more under the Act 1770, but it was inadequate to its end ;" and he of 1804, but not very many; the numbers also states that till the Act of 1791 was passed were much the same. Then the next step was there was no proper mode prescribed by law for the application of the prices to the tithe comascertaining the prices of grain. How he comes mutation by the Acts 6 & 7 William IV. to consider that the Act of 1770 was inadequate chapter 71, sections 56 and 57; and 1 Vict. does not appear, but this is the statement, and cap. 69, section 7. About the same time, the result was the elaborate Act of 1791. In or just a little after these Tithe Commutation the Act of 1770, the principal provision was that Acts, a very important Act was passed, namely, the justices were to obtain weekly prices from the 5 & 6 Vict., prescribing 290 towns in place two and not more than six markets in each county, of the 140. This was an elaborate Act passed and to establish a registry. These were the by Sir Robert Peel at that time, in consequence two features, so far as I can judge; that they of complaints that there were not sufficient towns, were to obtain weekly prices, and that they were and that there were great frauds upon the prices to establish a registry, and upon these prices the in consequence of sales being made at the higher bounties, and to some extent import duties, were price, apparently on purpose, so as to reduce the to be regulated. In 1791, however, they went a duty at which corn would be admitted. There 10 July 1888.] Mr. GIFFEN. [Continued. Chairman-continued. were very long discussions upon this Act before it was passed, and, in order to obviate a great many of the difficulties, 290 towns were substituted for the 140. The next step was the repeal of the Corn Laws in 1846, by which, of course, the special statutory use of the elaborate Act which was only passed two or three years before disappeared. That Act of 1842, 5 & 6 Vict., was passed with special reference to the sliding scale of duties; and there is no mention in it of the tithe averages so far as I can judge. The next The next step in the history was, that in 1846 the special use for which that Act of 1842 had been passed disappeared. But it was not until 1864, by the Act 27 & 28 Vict. cap. 87, that the number of towns from which the returns were obtained was diminished from 290 to about the old standard of 140 or 150. I may say that there are calculations in the Board of Trade before that Act was passed, to the effect that prices would be practically the same as if the number of towns were not diminished, so that the Act was not at all passed without some inquiry. The final step in the history was the passage of the Corn Returns Act of 1882, under which the Board of Trade obtained power to increase the number of towns up to 200, and to change the towns by means of an Order in Council; the previous Acts having prescribed expressly what the towns were to be, so that they could not be changed. And other amendments were introduced of a minor administrative char acter. 17. That was in consequence o fMr. Duckham, the Member for Herefordshire, drawing attention to the subject; and in consequence of the Chambers of Agriculture taking up the subject?-There was a good deal of discussion in the Chambers of Agriculture and other bodies; but the singular thing was that the Act was passed quite quietly through the House of Commons, and there was no debate to which I can refer. A great deal of interest was taken in the Act at the time, and Members representing agricultural interests were good enough to be of opinion that it was better to allow the Act to be passed even without debate, than not to have the Act, considering the objects that were intended to be accomplished by it. The department. however, was also desirous to have an Act, and had pressed on the matter independently. 18. At that time I believe you drew up an official Memorandum on the subject?-An official Memorandum was drawn up in 1879 and presented to the House at that time, which was about the time when a great many of these discussions commenced. 19. Was that in reply to the action taken by the Chambers of Agriculture?-It was more by way of exposition than of reply; it was not intended to be a controversial memorandum at all, and in fact it was first of all written for the information of the Government of that time, and then it was moved for by Mr. Talbot, who was Secretary to the Board of Trade at the time. 20. It was written owing to the general interest that was taken in the subject at the time? -Yes, the Memorandum is Paper 247 of Session 1879. 21. There was a House of Commons Committee on the Sale of Corn in March 1834, and Chairman-continued. there were no less than 45 Members on that Committee; were you aware of that?—I may say that I did not look up the proceedings of Committees specially for this purpose. There have been a good many Committees on agricultural matters at different times during the present century, before which evidence given about corn returns and about corn prices; and I know Mr. Jacob, a distinguished man and a former Controller of Corn Returns, was frequently examined. was 22. What are the different uses of the Corn Returns?-The corn prices being obtained, apart from the historical uses which have been mentioned, and the use of them for the purposes of tithe averages, which are no doubt very important, are also used for such purposes as corn-rents. I may say that we are very often now applied to at the Board of Trade to send out certificates of local prices for the purpose, we informed, of adjusting local rents. That is what we hear of. And besides that, I should be inclined to say that as the means of obtaining the prices are in everybody's hands, probably a great many rents are adjusted without people coming to us for formal certificates, because they have the means of adjusting rents by means of the prices that are published. are 23. Are you aware that a committee of land agents is sitting for the purpose in some counties; amongst others, I think, in Hertfordshire? -- At this moment I do not remember that Hertfordshire is one of the counties. 24. They would not come to you, because they have a committee of their own, consisting of 30 members, who strike the corn averages every year rather in the Scotch fashion?--I am not aware of it; but they have the means of doing that from our returns if they wish, just as well as we can do it. 25. But they prefer to take the corn averages locally ?-That is not a point that has come before me. The prices of course have been useful in public discussions, as to the condition of the country at different times, and in questions relating to agricultural depression and to the condition of the working classes. It is quite obvious that you cannot go into the question of the condition of the working classes by merely studying the money wages; you have to study what the wages can buy; and it is very convenient to have a public official record of the average prices of important articles of working-class consumption. It might be desirable if those records could be somewhat extended. 26. Do you consider that this change in the number of towns has affected the continuous nature of the prices?-I can give you information later on as to that; I have had the question investigated as to what the price would have been if we had not included so many more towns, and I can give you the exact figures. 27. What Returns of prices have been laid before the House. In the year 1880 Mr. Duckham moved for a Return of the prices in all the markets in England: would you not put that in?-I may say that I have got here the Return of the prices in all the markets for the year 1887, 1887, which I propose to put in. 28. Before doing that, let me ask you if you are |