price, which was the reason that all their deductions were wrong. He added, that public affairs could not be transacted with more care and attention than they were at present; that therefore he could not see the least occasion for adopting the method proposed; particularly as the contractors would refund to the treasury what they had taken beyond a fair price, and that the treasury would look to that and receive it accordingly; that the nation was not, at present, in a proper temper; and that this would only add to the calumnious spirit of the day. Governor Johnstone observed, that the very reasons assigned by the hon. gentleman who spoke last, were the strongest that could be possibly given in favour of the enquiry into the public accounts; because he had acknowledged that the accounts were intricate, and difficult to liquidate. The treasury had been greatly imposed on in the rum contract, and he believed knowingly so; for if they had made enquiry, they would have found that the current price of proof rum in the islands is 1s. Ild. and 4d. or 5d. at most, was fully sufficient for freight, leakage, &c. and was what any fair trader, or honest man, would be fully content with. He ridiculed lord North's self-sufficiency, in objecting to its being a secret committee, laying so much stress upon his own presence being essential to the carrying on the business in it; said, that for his part, were he to judge of the effect the noble lord's presence would have upon any future business, by what it had had upon all past, he should wish his absence from the committee. The situation of the affairs his lordship has hitherto had the immediate management of, was but little inducement for the House to give much weight to the objection made by him to the secret committee. Mr. Aubrey thanked the hon. gentleman who made the motion, to whom he was sure the House in general, and every country gentleman in particular, was much obliged. The papers on the table abounded with such instances of extravagance, that it plainly appeared there was no other method of checking the profusion of ministers, but the one moved for; that not to comply with the proposed enquiry, would be a breach of the trust reposed in us by our constituents; that if it was put off, not only the present ministers, but all future ones, would regard it as a declaration, that impunity is a confirmed privi[VOL. XIX.] lege of office; and that the rapacious contractor would receive it as a licence for plunder; that the valour of our officers and soldiers could not alone save the country; that there must be a strict attention to the application of public money; that without this, even another Marlborough or another Wolfe would not avail us; to use the words of one who was a great states. man, as well as a great poet, "In vain doth valour bleed, "While av'rice and rapine share the land." Mr. Jenkinson said, he was for the motion in part, but against the opinions of the committee being reported; that upon condition that the motion was amended according to that idea, he should vote for the select committee. He said, he knew the Treasury-board was always very exact in making enquiries before it entered into any contract; and made no doubt but the board had been equally circumspect on the present occasion. He said, he did not think this a proper time for the committee of accounts. The House was not in a temper to go into such a tedious, difficult examination, and it might be productive of great mischief, by disseminating ill-founded charges, calumnies, &c. Mr. Burke replied, that to appoint the committee would be the best means of preventing calumnies, and of refuting illfounded reports. The calumnies, if they deserved that appellation, were already spread; enquiry, leading to a disclosure of truth, was the surest way to detect falshood. If I had to do with a man, said he, who suspected me, and I was conscious of my own innocence, I would desire, I would intreat; and, if I could not otherwise persuade him to do me justice, I would, if in my power, compel him to examine into my conduct or accounts. He said, he differed in sentiment, as to the opinions not being reported from the committee, with the facts, but he did not afterwards insist upon his objection; said, that he could not see the great necessity there would be, for the noble lord's being present at the committee, or even the particular use there would be in it, unless to brow-beat some, and support prevarication in others. Lord North said, he would repeat again, he had no objection to a committee, but not up stairs: or if the House liked a select committee better, he would be perfectly content. Mr. Harley said, that the part of the public accounts relative to him, would take up very little of their time. [3 R] have been, to aggrandise and enrich themselves; to plunder, to impoverish, and to enslave the people. Col. Barre's motion having been amended by Mr. Cornwall, by leaving out the words, "to report their opinion thereon," the colonel said, that from the select committee in 1773, much was expected and little came forth; that he should wish to withdraw his motion, rather than hang out to the public hopes of redress, and afterwards disappoint the public expectation, by being able to effect nothing, as the matter was to be decided in the House, where the parties concerned were certain of a majority. Mr. Stanley said, he did not approve of the committee, hecause it implied a censure without a tittle of proof, that that censure was well founded. Mr. Bayley repeated what he had often said respecting the rum contracts; that he had offered ministers better, or at least as good, rum, for half the price they had charged to the public. Mr. Alderman Bull. Sir, during the late peace, administration paid off eleven millions of the national debt; the public, however, did not, nor could they perceive any advantage they gained by this reduction of the debt, the taxes continuing the same, until they were told, that if we should be again involved in a war, they would then be able to borrow the amount of the sum paid off, without laying fresh burdens upon the people. Sir, we have had a war, and how have these ministerial assurances turned out? Instead of fact, they were all delusion. The first moment supplies were required, new taxes were proposed: 2,150,000l. were funded the year before the last; for this small sum (compared with eleven million) fresh taxes were levied upon the people. The last year five millions were funded, and proportionable taxes were imposed. Part of the additional load of the present year, our task-masters have indulged us with the knowledge of. I must add a word upon the subject of the present unhappy war. My opinion has ever been the same; I Sir George Yonge, for the committee, think it founded in injustice, and exe- said, that the papers on the table concuted in inhumanity. I hope the peo-tained the charge, and that it was incum ple will be roused to a contemplation of the bent on those it might be supposed to af perilous state in which they now are fect, to endeavour to refute it. there may not be a week between us and total ruin. We have lost America; our madness has driven her to independency; and that independency, in defiance of our resolves, I am confident she will support. Besides this, we have to lament, and ministers to answer for, the loss of many thousands of valuable lives, and many millions of money, which no success in such an iniquitous war can ever repay. These, Sir, are some of the fatal effects of the wisdom of the present ministers. Delusion has succeeded delusion, and disgrace has succeeded disgrace, till little remains to be added to the catalogue of our calamities. The hon. gentleman who made the motion has said, that the citizens of London are now so depressed, that they hardly dare complain; yet, Sir, though a citizen of London, I dare to give my opinion in this House, and in the hearing of certain noble lords. This opinion I have long held, and in which I am more and more confirmed by every day's experience. I am the more ready to declare this opinion, because I do most firmly believe it to be the opinion, not only of the minority, but the majority of this House also. I mean, Sir, that the great objects of the present administration, their aiders and abettors, are, and ever The motion as amended was then agreed to. And a Select Committee of 21 wa afterwards chosen by ballot. Debate on the Earl of Effingham's Motion relative to the State of the Navy.] March 31. The Earl of Effingham beg ged to trouble their lordships with a few motions which he had drawn out, and by which the House would be enabled to ascertain the real state of the navy, and the mode of expenditure and application of the various large sums which had been voted for the different departments of the naval service. It had been already proved, that the public money had been not more libe rally voted, than lavishly spent. It be hoved their lordships, therefore, to look into the accounts presented to them with a wary eye, and by closely examining the several totals, to discover the propriety of each article of expenditure; to lessen for the future such as were larger than occa sion required; and to put a negative upon such others hereafter as should appear to the House to be altogether unnecessary. This he considered as an act of duty highly incumbent on their lordships. It was, however, totally impossible for the House to acquit themselves either to their 1 country or their sovereign, unless they then, were our resources? For his part, called for such papers as would supply he could see none but in retrenchments. those manifest deficiencies which appeared scattered throughout those already on the table. The motions he was about to submit to their lordships, if agreed to, were calculated to supply that defect. His lordship then moved for: 1. An Account of the State of the Ships in his Majesty's Navy, as delivered to the Admiralty by the surveyor of the navy, in the latter end of the year 1770. 2. An Account of the Ordinary Estimates of the Navy from 1771 to 1778 inclusive. 3. An Account of the Number of Ships broke up and sold, together with an account of what they sold for, and also an account of the quantity of Old Stores, and the prices at which they sold. 4. An Account of the buildings, rebuildings, and repairs of ships and vessels over and above those charged in the wear and tear of the year 1777. 5. An Account of the amount of stoppages of 4d. per man per month, as chaplains in those ships, that have not borne chaplains. As soon as the first motion was read from the woolsack, the noble earl rose and stated his general reasons for troubling their lordships on the present occasion. He observed that we had been now three years engaged in a war with only part of our own subjects; and had failed in obtaining the objects for which we engaged in it; nay, he feared, had lost the country totally, and instead of subjects, or even friends or allies, had caused the colonies by our impolitic, unjust, and cruel treatment, to become our most implacable enemies. We had, besides, already incurred an additional debt of 23 millions, and were in the act of adding to that debt, even though we had no other enemy to contend with but America, at the rate of 9 millions per annum, as long as the contest should last. But if war was, as he feared it must be, the issue of the offensive paper delivered by the French ambassador, we might conclude, that instead of America alone, we should have France and America shortly to contend with; and it would be no great stretch of political speculation to say, that such an event might at length draw Spain into the quarrel, as an additional, and at such a crisis, a most dangerous adversary. In such a state of things, what was to be done? Our finances were already as low as they had been at any period during the late war. We must borrow and fund, the consequence of which would be a further fall of stocks. Where, His lordship proceeded to shew, that a conduct, the reverse of what he now recommended, had prevailed in almost every department of the state, since the commencement of the American war; and ap plied to the particular department to which his motions were directed, ever since the noble lord at the head of the Admiralty was called into office. He would make no special charge, but many things appeared highly blameable in the conduct of that board within both periods, including in the whole nearly eight years, both on grounds of a neglect of duty and increased expence, without even the trite plea of necessity. Enough, he was not backward to declare, to justify the strongest suspicions, that the business of the naval department, for some years past, had been made a matter of private jobbing, rather than of fair and open bargain and sale. His lordship compared the official expences which formed part of the ordinary of the navy, since 1770, with what it had been fixed by an order of the king in council, in 1727. He affirmed, that part of the ordinary appropriated for the payment of the civil officers, including the board, clerks, &c. amounted then to no more than from 34,000 to 38,000/ whereas at present, it was raised to 46,000l. If any more lords or commissioners had been added, if there had been any new officers created; if in short there had been any plausible pretence for such an increase, he should not have mentioned it, when there were so many other articles of so much greater magnitude; but the truth was, no such pretence existed; for instead of its being a gradual and natural increase of expenditure incurred, it was created all of a sudden. It was the work of a single year or single day. This increase of 12,000l. took place in 1773 without a single reason assigned. From 1727 to 1773 this branch of the ordinary continued at 34,000l. but in the latter year it suddenly rose to 46,000/. But even supposing the increase justifiable, the mode of doing it certainly was not. The former order could not be revoked by a lesser power than that by which it was made; and it behoved the noble earl who ventured to revoke it, as well to shew that such a revocation was necessary, as that he was sufficiently authorised to do it out of his own head. He said, he could adduce proofs of an earlier date, to shew, that the affairs of the navy always called for the inspecting eye of parliament. Among several others he mentioned the period, when prince George of Denmark, queen Anne's husband, presided at that board; that the expence then bore no manner of proportion to the present; and parliament frequently, both then and at several precedent and subsequent periods since the Revolution went into the utmost minutiæ respecting the state and condition of the navy. He pointed out instances of money granted for the repair of several ships, though the same ships appeared again in the next year's estimate; and at the end of two, three, or four years, when the repairs or pretended repairs amounted to more than a ship of the same rate would have cost if she had been entirely rebuilt; her history was, that she had been broke up, or was sold, as totally unfit for service: so much for the expence of repairing the hull; so much for masts; so much for rigging; when perhaps she had never been in dock, nor had a single shilling expended upon her during the whole twelve months; but probably appeared in the front of the estimate of the ensuing year. After dwelling on these circumstances, he urged the pressing necessity, which, he trusted, all their lordships felt for the papers, comprized in his motions, and declared, that so far was he from wishing to call forth any information which might tend to acquaint France with what she was ignorant of, that he would cheerfully consent to have his motions altered in such manner as to avoid a possibility of any ill consequence. His lordship from this part of the ordinary, proceeded to consider the sum total, which, he said, till very lately, amounted on an average to 200,000l. per annum; whereas, as present it amounted to the monstrous sum of 430,000l. a year, and was yearly increasing. This led him to take a comparative view of the four years lord Hawke presided at the Admiralty board, and either of the four years since the present noble earl's entrance into office, and endeavour to satisfy their lordships that there was a most rapid increase. From whence he drew this conclusion, that either the money voted for the naval service, had been most criminally lavished, or that our navy was upon a much more respectable footing than it had been at any former period, which was a circumstance he most ardently wished might prove true; but 'which from every thing that had hitherto appeared, he feared would turn out directly the reverse. His lordship observed next, upon the whole of the expence of the navy, ordinary and extraordinary, independent of what was voted for pay, &c. This he classed under three heads, ordinary, extraordinary, and navy debt, which, he said, since the present first commissioner came to preside, amounted to ten or eleven millions, and a fraction, a sum nearly double to what had been granted for the same service, either the eight preceding years, or any other period of the same duration, since we had a royal navy; and equal to build 100 men of war of the line, and a proportionable number of frigates, from the laying of the keel, to the fitting of them for actual service. He did not include the sum granted by the House in the latter end of 1770, at the time of the rumour of an approaching Spanish war, which amounted to half a million more. His lordship spoke of the constant repugnancy there was between the estimates of each year, and the actual expenditure. This, he affirmed, was a gross insult to parliament; was full of fallacy and deceit. His lordship next read a list of the several sums which still lay in the hands of the respective treasurers of the navy, since the commencement of the present reign, namely, Mr. George Grenville, lord Barrington, lord Howe, and sir Gilbert Elliot. These, he said, amounted together to a very considerable sum, and it was an instance of great neglect, or something worse, that at the end of 17 years, not one of these accounts had been liquidated, or finally settled. The whole amounted to 150,000., lord Howe's to 37,000, and sir Gilbert Elliot's to 113,000. On the third motion, that of the number of ships broke up and sold, and the prices they were sold for, he said, the Admiralty board were quite silent; the public having received no credit for their amount, though it had, from time to time, paid such enormous sums for their repairs. The noble lord at the head of the Admiralty himself, had frequently asserted, that a great many had been broke up or sold since he came into office; and as no notice had been taken of such sale or disposal, or the produce of what had been converted to other uses, he thought it especially behoved the noble earl to acquaint the public through the medium of that House. Having gone through the several leading heads, on which his motions were to say thus much, were in full operation against his agreeing to the present motions, which he should object to, as tending to discover to our enemies, and all the world, what it was exceedingly material for us to conceal. The noble earl had drawn a comparison between the situation of the navy, in 1727 and at the present time; a comparison which was not at all warrantable. In 1727, we had not more than 190 ships of war, now we had full 373; and added to this, the expences of every kind had increased nearly double. founded, he took a general view of the | state of the nation, and the critical and alarming predicament in which it stood; and affirmed that nothing could rescue us from the jaws of destruction, but rouzing the ancient, though for some time dormant spirit of the nation. Besides such a renovation of spirit, he could see nothing to assist us, but a rigid œconomy, and faithful expenditure of the public grants. He had heard, indeed, a great deal of the flourishing state of our revenue, and of our internal opulence. He sincerely hoped it might turn out true; but supposing it should, he was convinced that the people would never act with alacrity or energy under an administration, in whom, either in point of integrity or capacity, they could never be persuaded to repose their trust, whom they had on the contrary every strong ground to suspect of a shameful waste of the public treasure. In preference to almost every thing else, he recommended their lordships to adopt some mode, which might be productive of a reform in this particular, and to take care that such a reform should take place in the navy, which called for double attention; because, any gross neglect or malversation in that department, might prove fatal, if relying on it in the moment of danger, we should find ourselves disappointed. He once more recommended to the first lord of the Admiralty, as the best proof of bearing no part of the censure here thrown out against the whole board, to consent to the motions, or propose such alterations, as may be only necessary, in his opinion, to prevent any improper information getting to the knowledge of our foreign enemies. The Earl of Sandwich replied, that he heartily wished the enquiry had never been begun, asserting that he was perfectly convinced that what had come out in the course of the committee's sitting, and especially the papers relative to the navy, had been extremely prejudicial to the interests of this country; that the account of the cruisers and convoys which had been appointed, had, in particular, done the nation infinite disservice; that he foresaw the consequences when the motion was made for them, and had therefore given his opinion against it; that he never was more sure of any position, than that they had served as a lesson to France, where she might attack us, and where she might, with the greatest probability of success, attempt an invasion. The very same reasons which induced him With regard to the charge on the ground of applying sums, voted for the purpose of repairing certain ships stated in the estimates presented to parliament, to the repair of other ships, nothing could be more ill-founded; it clearly arose from the noble earl's want of knowledge of the nature of conducting navy repairs. The circumstance was unavoidable, as he would in two minutes shew their lordships. It was always customary, and it was a custom founded on necessity and expediency, to repair those ships first, which stood in need of the least repair, by which means the number of ships were easily kept up; a circumstance so obviously proper, that he would not take up a moment of their lordships' time to enforce it. When a ship was put into dock to repair, and the sides stripped, it sometimes turned out that she wanted a larger repair than had been imagined; such ships as had been supposed to need only 3,000l. and three months repair, had afterwards appeared to stand in need of 8,000l. and eight months repair; and as a ship must be finished when her repair was once begun, it was usual to take so much of the money voted for the repair of another ship, as was necessary to complete the cost, and to let the other ship remain untouched till a future opportunity. The earl answered respecting the 12,000l. a year, stated to have been allotted for the commissioners of the navy, and admiralty in particular; that no additional commissioners had been appointed in his time, excepting two, one for Halifax, and another for America; which were absolutely necessary for the dispatch of public business. The increase he acknowledged, but said the expence arose entirely from another cause. In 1773, an additional number of clerks were put on the establishment; not that this was a real increase of expenditure, for the clerks had been for many years employed, and paid |