exceeding any of former times by 50,000l. and the ordinary repairs, wear and tear, &c. of ships out of commission, when there are only about fourscore on that list, came to as much as was charged on 250 ships and vessels of the like description, before the American war broke out, being little short of 170,000l.

Mr. Welbore Ellis assured the hon. gentleman he had been much misinformed; that he rather commended than blamed his zeal for urging an enquiry into the large sums granted for the uses of the he confessed that, in general, they met with too little regard from the members of that House; but he could venture to assure the hon. gentleman, that he had been much misinformed as to the mal-application of the liberal grants of parliament for that most essential essential object. He had been long well acquainted with the navy department, and had been honoured, more than once, with a post of rank and confidence in that line; he had not observed any gross abuses in those who presided over it, and hoped the navy was in a much better situation than the hon. gentleman had surmised, and would so be found when the day of trial should come. There must, of course, be vast grants for so extensive a department, especially for building, rebuilding, and repairs, immediately after the close of such a war as the last, when the ships were in a great measure worn out, and must be replaced with new ones, and therefore, for a few years of the peace immediately following, the estimates would be higher than in subsequent times. As to the article of the monies granted for the navy, the Admiralty board could only be made accountable for such sums as they actually drew out of the Treasury, and not for all the sums which were voted by parliament upon estimates stated to be for that service. He did not wonder at gentlemen being surprized at the magnitude of sums demanded for repairs, but attributed the necessity of such demands to the badness of timber with which many of our new ships had been built, but he hoped the quantity of timber in our dock-yards would give time for the wood to be better seasoned, and fitter for service; a quantity, he said, never known in our dock-yards before the present first lord of the Admiralty came to the board.

Mr. Temple Luttrell. To the timber for ship-building and repairs, imported from abroad, I attribute much of the ruinous

When the

state of your ships of war. quality is found so very pernicious, the quantity can only be brought in argument to shew the magnitude of the mischief: it is this foreign timber which has, I fear, entailed rottenness on your fleet; and if the last fire in your dock yards had made a providential sweep of all your oak from Stetten, I believe it would have more than compensated for its destruction of other truly valuable articles. He thought the right hon. gentleman had argued much more forcibly against the present naval administration, than he had ever presumed to do, alledging, that the largest grants for the extraordinaries of the navy, were of course necessary for some few years immediately after the war. This maxim might, indeed, reasonably warrant the late Mr. Grenville, or lord Egmont, in applying to parliament for an advanced allowance on this head when they presided at the Admiralty; or might have justified that illustrious seaofficer, (lord Hawke) when he was at the head of the Board, had the extraordinaries then come up to the present enormous sum. The demand now made thereon was near half a million sterling, and far exceeded requisitions of the kind attempted by any of lord Sandwich's predecessors in office. The noble earl came to the head of the navy eight years after a profound peace. Including the present estimates, the House of Commons will have given that noble earl about 2,100,000%. for building, rebuilding, and repairing the ships and vessels of his Majesty's navy, that is, the mere hull, masts, and yards, over and above near 800,000l. for the keeping and preserving the hulls of his Majesty's ships out of commission, and above 600,000l. for extra-stores, exclusive of what was allowed by the nation to replenish the stores consumed by the fire at Portsmouth dock-yard, and exclusive of sundry considerable demands for timber, &c. set forth in the navy-debt. More money had therefore been granted by the nation to the noble earl by this country,⚫ on the extraordinary estimate alone, than would have built from the stocks, rigged and completely equipped for sea, (independent of navy-ordnance, which is a distinct and weighty charge in the public ac counts) 100 men of war. And what is the actual condition of your ships at present? Of the whole navy of Great Britain, not more, at the utmost, than fifty of the line of battle, can possibly be found fit for sea, in case of a foreign war, without such re»

pairs as would require the labour of many months, and a very large expence. Lord Hawke, when he resigned his office, left 80 of the line in good condition, of which 59 were fully manned for war.-Mr. Luttrell then examined the list of men of war of the line now given in to be repaired, and remarked, that the following ships had already been allowed more money for repairs than would have built them new from the keel at the most extravagant cost, viz. Namur, within the four last years, 39,3351. and 6,6351. for her stores. The Defence, 29,500l. The Arrogant, 26,500. He should sit down, after stating the estimates for repairing the Dragon of 74 guns, and which had more than once been reported to the House as actually taken in hand. The Admiralty, in 1771, came to parliament for 5,000l. to repair the Dragon: in 1772, for 7,000l. more; in 1773, for 4,000l.; in 1774, 4,000/; in 1775, 7,000l. in all 27,000l. besides 10,2731. for her stores. Now, does, or does not, that very ship still remain untouched, in a most rotten state, above Portsmouth harbour, and without having had any of those sums allowed for her repair by parliament, expended on her from the time of the first grant, in 1771, to the present day?

Lord Mulgrave admitted the hon. gen. tleman's charge, and agreed, that not one shilling had been laid out in repairing those ships, but said the money was applied to other naval purposes, and not put into a bag by the first lord of the Admiralty, or into his pocket; that the estimate was the usual mode of raising money, but was never meant to state the purposes the money was to be applied to; that if it was a crime, it was one that had been often practised ever since the reign of James 2. Mr. Temple Luttrell had never said, nor insinuated, that the noble earl put into a bag for his private use, the monies thus voted: he therefore requested, that, when ever the noble lord did him the honour to quote his words, or comment upon his ideas, he would do it ingenuously and faithfully that there had been unpardonable extravagance somewhere, under a pretence of naval services, he was certain; and the fleet was in an alarming state of decay. Perhaps the first lord of the Admiralty thought it the best policy to endeavour to mask this weakness, and boldly assert the direct contrary to facts, in hopes of deceiving the courts of Versailles and Madrid: but surely he is too well acquainted with the correctness of the intel

ligence of those powers, on such an important subject as this, to flatter himself that his impositions will have any success beyond the British Channel. As to the custom of ministers since the days of king James or king William, I could have wished the hon. member, before he went so far back in our history, to have read the Representation Address of this House, in 1711, to queen Anne, upon abuses exactly similar to these. They were set forth to her majesty as substantial grievances to her people, and atrocious crimes in the ministers so offending; and in her answer thereto, she promises them ample redress; which proves, that the money granted upon specific estimates must be applied to the purposes therein set forth, unless, upon proper official application, the parliament agree to a different appropriation thereof.*

Mr. Burke expressed his astonishment at what the Admiralty had dared to acknowledge: and, in the warmth of his indignation, threw the book of estimates at the Treasury bench; which, taking the candle in its way, had nearly struck Mr. Ellis's shins; Mr. Burke exclaiming, that it was treating the House with the utmost contempt, to present them with a fine gilt book of estimates, calculated to a farthing, for purposes to which the money granted was never meant to be applied. When former ministers had ventured to impose, they had the modesty to endeavour to conceal the crime; it remained for the present to have such confidence in their power, as to risk an acknowledgment of their prodigality, and to set at defiance the principles of the constitution, and the authority of parliament.

Governor Johnstone lamented, that the generosity of the people could not induce ministers to employ the money to the principal uses intended, that of keeping our ships in repair, and building our men of war with the best materials that can be procured.-The Resolution was then agreed to.

Debate in the Lords on General Gates's Letter to the Earl of Thanet respecting' the Capture of General Burgoyne's Army, &c.] Feb. 16. The Earl of Thanet rose, and held out a Letter, which he said he had received from general Gates, and which he thought it his duty to communicate to their lordships.-The Letter was

* See Vol. 6, p. 1026.

handed to the clerk at the table, who was preparing to read it, when

Viscount Townshend rose, and after declaring that general Gates had exalted his character exceedingly by his humane conduct respecting general Burgoyne, observed, that however high he might stand in their lordships' opinion, he surely was a very unfit person for that House to enter into a correspondence with; that he was, at the time of his writing the letter, at the head of a rebel army; that it would be a degradation of parliament to make such a letter the ground of a resolution; he therefore hoped the House would not suffer it to be read.

Earl Gower said, that, for what their lordships knew, the letter in question might be of a nature exceedingly improper for their lordships to hear: at any rate it was contrary to parliamentary form for the clerk to read it at the table.

The Duke of Richmond said, that the letter came from a man of great weight in America, and that it was ridiculous to refuse information, let it present itself in what shape it might.

The Duke of Grafton said, that the noble earl had merely begged the letter might be read by some other person, because he had a hoarseness, which he feared might prevent the House from hearing him.

The Marquis of Rockingham then took the letter, and read it to their lordships, as follows:

"My lord; Albany, Oct. 26, 1777. "Presuming upon our former friendship, I take the liberty of addressing this letter to your lordship, general Burgoyne having assured me it shall be faithfully delivered. The very important event of this campaign, so far as it respects general Burgoyne and myself, will, by the unexaggerating voice of truth, be related to your lordship. For, what less can be said of it, than that the King's army, which left Canada in June, are all killed, taken, or have surrendered prisoners, under the convention of Saratoga? How this complete victory has been used, with respect to the behaviour of the conquerors to the vanquished, general Burgoyne and lord Petersham, as they are soldiers, and men of honour, will declare. But to the main design of my addressing this letter to your lordship.

"Born and educated in England, I cannot help feeling for the misfortunes brought upon my native country by the

wickedness of that administration, who began, and have continued, this most unjust, impolitic, cruel and unnatural war. The dismemberment of the empire, the loss of commerce, of power and consequence amongst the nations, with the downfall of public credit, are but the beginning of those evils, that must inevitably be followed by a thousand more, unless timely prevented by some lenient hand, some great state physician, with the firmness, integrity and abilities of a Chatham, joined to the wisdom, virtue and justice of a Camden, aided and supported by such men as your lordship: men, as independent in their fortunes as unsullied in their honour, and who never bowed their heads to Baal. Such a man, so supported, may yet save the sinking state, by confirming that independency, which the people of this continent are resolved to part with, but when they leave this world. Such a man will do what all wise statesmen have done before him. He will be true to the welfare and interest of his country; and, by rescinding the resolutions passed to support that system which no power on earth can establish, he will endeavour to preserve so much of the empire, in prosperity and honour, as the circumstances of the times, and the mal-administration of those who ruled before him, have left to his govern

ment.

"The United States of America are will. ing to be the friends, but never will sub. mit to be the slaves of the parent country. They are, by consanguinity, by commerce, by language, and by the affection which naturally springs from these, more attached to England than any other country under the sun. Therefore, spurn not the blessing which yet remains. Instantly withdraw your fleets and armies; cultivate the friendship and commerce of America. Thus, and thus only, can England hope to be great and happy. Seek that in a commercial alliance; seek it ere it be too late, for there only you must expect to find it.

"These, my lord, are the undisguised sentiments of a man that rejoices not in the blood shed in this fatal contest; of a man who glories in the name of an Englishman, and wishes to see peace and friendship between Great Britain and America, fixed upon the firmest foundation.

"Our friend, general Lee, has suffered a long and severe imprisonment; but the hour is at hand that forces general Howe to what he must for ever blush for not having done before. The pride, not the

peace with America; that season he feared was now past. His grace mentioned the loss of the United Provinces by Spain, after forty years war, and ended with expressing his hopes that our unhappy quarrel with America was not to be equally prolonged, or to end so fatally to this country.

The Ear! of Bristol, instead of speaking to the question, talked of the heavy burdens, and of the melancholy aspects of Great Britain. Transports had been hired at an immense expence. Ships of war might have transported the stores to America, and thus two thirds of the money expended might have been saved.

The Earl of Sandwich defended the state of the navy. The ships were well officered, and manned. At least in case of a war with France, a ship had been assigned for the noble lord, and that it might be presumed was very amply supplied.

The Earl of Bristol intreated to be excused. He was very willing to serve his country in the line of his profession. But God forbid that he should set his foot in the ship which had been assigned him, so wretchedly as it was at present manned.

The Earl of Sandwich wished that the commanders of the several ships in commission might be called to the bar of the House, and interrogated as to the manner in which their ships were manned. As to the motion, that the letter of general Gates should be laid on the table, he objected to it. The advice of general Gates was not to be taken, because he had displayed his ignorance of the sentiments of those very men, whom he had recommended as proper persons to succeed the present ministers. General Gates did not appear to know that the earl of Chatham had disclaimed the idea of American independence.

The Duke of Grafton said, the letter contained information. It was written by a leading man in America. There was no more impropriety in having a letter from general Gates called for by the House, than in having a letter written by governor Bernard, lie on the table. The papers which communicated the most information, were the papers which at this time should be sought after.

The motion was then negatived.

Debate in the Committee on the State of the Nation upon the Duke of Richmond's Motion respecting the State of the British Forces in America.] The House then

went into a Committee on the State of the Nation.

The Duke of Richmond rose, and said a few words prefatory to the Resolutions he meant to offer, which, he declared, turned chiefly on these points: the state of the army, and number of effective men in America in 1774, 1775, 1776, and 1777, with the services and events of each campaign, as appeared from the papers referred to the consideration of the committee. His grace gave his reasons for adopting a different mode of conduct from that which he had followed on a preceding occasion, and therefore only read his first Resolution, which was as follows: "That it appears to this Committee, so far as they are informed from the Returns upon the table, that the greatest number of Land Forces serving in North America, in 1774, consisted of 6,920 effective men, including officers."

Viscount Weymouth rose to object to the expediency and propriety of the committee coming to any resolutions of truths which were sufficiently obvious, just at that time; and concluded with declaring, that as the same arguments which had been used at the last meeting of the committee, applied to the present question, he would not trouble their lordships with a repetition of them, but, as the most gentle method of disposing of the resolution, would move that the chairman quit the chair.

The Duke of Grafton complained exceedingly of the lords in office adopting so short a method of preventing the ascertainment of truth, and refusing to afford the nation an opportunity of acquiring the most certain knowledge of the state of their affairs; it was to no purpose to continue the enquiry, if the steps which it pointed out, as proper to be taken in consequence of it, were not pursued: that the reasons for the committee's refusing to come to resolutions of fact, were frivolous: that the idea of preventing foreign nations from getting at the knowledge of our true situation, was absurd in the extreme: that the courts of France and Spain had much better information than could be collected from the papers upon the table: that the only people ignorant of the facts which the present inquiry was entered upon with a view of establishing, were the people of England, from whom administration withheld every species of information, and by thus keeping them ignorant of their real situation, deluded them into an acquies