must center with Great Britain. His grace then adverted to his question, which was no more than for the committee to allow, as a resolution, part of what had been already evidenced at the bar, and which would enable their lordships the better to see the grounds they stood on in respect to America, and consequently know what line to take. seamen, reckoning 80 men in each ship. 14. That of the above privateers, 34 have been taken, which carried 3,217 men, which is more than 94 men to each vessel." The Earl of Sandwich said, he all along, from the moment this enquiry into the state of the nation began, dreaded it; not on his own account, but on account of the general hurt it may produce, that of laying open difficulties and embarrassments (which he confessed this country was under) and which should not be laid open. If the noble duke who began this enquiry had calculated the losses of the country by capture of vessels, &c. before that should be admitted, there should be deducted the value of all the prizes taken by the English from the Americans, which, setting the number of prizes at 904, and each prize worth 2,000l. amounted to 1,808,000l. His lordship said, great advantages were gained by the new fisheries, and concluded, that though nobody wished an end to the war more than he did, yet the continuance of it was, in many respects, advantageous to this country, and would be more so. The Duke of Richmond said, he was surprised to hear his lordships' detail urged as an argument for not deciding on this motion, as it did not mix with any other matter, but resulted from facts proved at their lordship's bar. He was, however, more surprised at the conclusion drawn from that detail," that because a number of vessels had been taken, they were to be balanced by another number of vessels taken, on the other side, and consequently no loss to the nation upon the whole." I do not mean, said his grace, to be particularly pointed to individuals; and I hope the noble lord will permit me to separate at present the man from the office. I therefore say, speaking to be so understood, I do not wonder at all the distresses which have overwhelmed this country, when a noble lord at the head of the marine department of this nation, betrays such ignorance. What, my lords, when the merchants of this country have lost 733 ships, valued at above two millions of money; to say that the commerce of this country is not affected by such a loss, because an equal number of ships have been taken from the enemy, and the prizes distributed to British seamen! This is so far from being a balance in our favour, it adds to our loss, for if we were not at war with America, the value of all these cargoes in the circuitous course of trade The Earl of Suffolk opposed the motions on the impropriety of acknowledging what ought not to be acknowledged at so critical a period, the weakness of the nation: he said, the best way of going on in this business would be, to let all the papers lie on their lordships' table for general information, and do the best they could either to remedy defects, or otherwise, but by no means to resolve upon the national imbecility. The Duke of Grafton called upon their lordships to consider the question they were to decide upon, which was a fact already established, and which their lordships could not refuse their assent to: he said, he did not know, nor was it material to know, what the noble duke afterwards meant to go into; so much was clear ground, and would be a very proper one for their lordships to form some resolutions upon respecting the present war with America. A debate ensued about the mode of disposing of the question. Some were for putting it affirmatively or negatively, others a previous question; but as the latter could not be adopted in the committee, a motion was made for lord Scarsdale quitting the chair, and the House divided: Contents 80; Non-contents 32. committee being dissolved, the Lord Chancellor resumed the woolpack, when the previous question," That this motion be now put," being put separately, on the duke's Resolutions, they all passed in the negative, without a division. The Debate in the Committee on the State of the Nation upon Mr. Fox's Motion relative to the State of the British Forces in America.] Feb. 11. The House went into a Committee on the State of the Nation. Before the Speaker left the chair, lord North said, he should, on Tuesday the 17th, propose to the House a Plan of Conciliation with America. Mr. Pulteney having taken the chair, Mr. Fox rose, and stated a number of facts relative to the army serving in America, which facts were founded on conclusions drawn from the information on the table. He observed, that there was such a number of effective men in America (6,864) in the year 1774; that by comparing the reinforcements sent out the next year, added to the forces then on the spot, with the returns at the conclusion of that year, it would give the total deficiency, which under its several heads amounted to the total loss; so with the years 1776 and 1777 thus, by adding to the number of men serving in America the first year, the reinforcements and recruits of each successive year, and comparing the amount of those several totals with the last returns, the difference between the latter and the former shewed exactly the loss of men slain in battle, or dead, or otherwise incapacitated for service, by wounds, captivity, and sickness. This, he observed, was the first part of his plan, to ascertain the loss of lives, and loss of service, under their respective heads; the other part of it would be, to estimate the loss of treasure, which he computed, at the lowest computation, to be full 25 millions spent, which, with 20,000 lives lost, that being the difference, he said, between the troops serving in America at the commencement of the war, and the whole of the embarkations, he appealed to the judgment of the committee, whether it was not full time-(considering that we had gained nothing, or next to nothing, by this fatal contest hitherto, but a powerful, numerous, and well-disciplined enemy, instead of an undisciplined rabble, to contend with)-to think of the critical and alarming situation of public affairs. Whether our resources of men and money were equal to the difficult and hazardous task of conquest; or if that should appear, on enquiry, to be totally impracticable, whether parliament should not, and that immediately, devise some means for putting an end to our public calamities, and endeavour to avert those imminent dangers with which we are threatened on every side. If ministers, while they hold out the plan of conciliation, will at the same time have the candour to acquaint the House, how much treasure has been wasted, how many lives have been lost, how many disgraces have been brought on the nation, by this mad, improvident, and destructive war, he would most certainly join them;-that 25 millions of money have been already spent, or the faith of the nation has been pledged for the expenditure; and that 20,000 lives had been thrown away to no manner of purpose; but, if at all-practicable, to make conciliation infinitely more difficult than if the sword had never been drawn, a shilling spent, or a life lost. He gave the most ample testimony to the bravery and good conduct of the generals; and contended, that they miscarried, not for want of skill in their profession, or from neglect of duty, but merely because they were employed in a service, in which it was impossible for them to succeed; and if ministers shewed any trace of wisdom throughout their whole conduct, it was in their choice of the officers they sent out, though they now basely insinuated, that it was only in the choice of generals that they were deceived; and that it was to their fault alone, that all our miscarriages in the prosecution of the measures could be justly imputed. He said, he had been informed, that it was intended to send out other generals, and on that ground that great expectations were formed from the next campaign: but, for his part, he expected, that whoever should succeed to the present gentlemen in command, would just meet with the fate of their predecessors; they would be one day charged with indolence, inactivity, and want of spirit; with a designed procrastination of the war, from motives of lucre and private interest; and the next, with Quixotism, knight-errantry, and exceeding the instructions under which they were to act. He turned again to the intended proposition of the noble lord in the blue ribbon, and assured his lordship, that if his plan was a fair, open one, founded in justice and good policy, and warranted by the principles of the constitution, he would venture to answer for his side of the House, that it would meet with their most hearty concurrence. He feared it would not answer this description; because he could hardly be persuaded, unless the idea of tyranny, cruelty, and meanness were inseparable, that the same men who had rejected the most humble petitions and dutiful remonstrances with haughtiness and contempt, could ever consent to hold out any plan which was meant to secure those rights which they had all along attempted to annihilate by the sword, thereby adding tyranny and cruelty to oppression and injustice. He then read his several Resolutions, which amounted to 12 in number; that there was such a number of troops in America in 1774, so many sent in 1775, total of that year, and so on with 1776 and all dependence, and disclaim all connection with the parent-state, and, by so doing, establish their own greatness on the ruin of the mother-country. It was upon these principles that he had supported the war, in which he had but one object, revenue. These principles were now become merely matter of speculation; such as they were, however, he should ever retain them: he therefore did not mean by his vote of that day to abandon them; but to consider the question of expediency, which must decide upon the war. He deplored the disgrace brought, not upon our arms but on our counsels, by the rash undigested expedi tion from Canada. He lamented the little protection given to our commerce, the 1777, which ought, on the whole, in the latter year to have amounted to 48,000 effective men and a fraction; that by the last returns, foreigners and British included, did not amount to more than 28,000, consequently the loss was 20,000 men. Whence he drew this conclusion, that if with such a number of troops so little could be done, it was clear, that the carrying on the war, either to terrify the Americans into obedience, or to subdue them, was impracticable. His first Resolution moved was; "That it appears to this Committee, that in the year 1774, the whole of the land forces serving in North America did not amount to more than 6,864 effective men, officers included." Lord Barrington said, he highly disap-weight of insurance, the state of our public proved of the motion, as improper and ill- credit; to these circumstances he must timed; but when he knew some of the yield; but he hoped the day of retribution hon. gentleman's proposed resolutions were would come, when ministers might be not founded in fact, he had no difficulty in called to a severe account for the infamy giving them a direct negative. The hon. which they have brought upon this coungentleman stated, that 20,000 men had try, by their conduct of a war, into which been lost already in this war; this, he con- they had deceived the country, by protended, was founded in gross error, for, mises of a revenue which they now abanby the returns which he had in his hand, doned. it plainly appeared, that instead of 20,000 men being lost, the whole amount of the killed, in the course of the three years war, was no more than 1,200. He did not mean to include in that number those who died natural deaths, or deserted, or were made prisoners, or were unfit for service through wounds or sickness, but such only as were slain in battle. If, therefore, the resolution concerning the loss of men was to go out into the world, it would convey a very false idea, and looking on it in that light, he should give it his hearty negative. Mr. Grenville, in an animated speech, condemned the conduct of the American war. He acknowledged, that he always thought, and should ever continue to think, be the event of the present contest what it might, that parliament had a right to have a controul over America; to levy taxes, to regulate its trade, and secure the monopoly of its commerce. The establishing and maintaining of colonies would be folly, were it otherwise; the protecting them, when they were not able to protect and defend themselves, at a very great expence, which has ever been, and always must be the case, from the nature of such establishments, would not be folly, but madness in the extreme, if, when they arrived at a state of strength and maturity, to be no longer in want of our aid, they were to be at liberty entirely to throw off [VOL. XIX.] He observed, that the noble lord at the head of the Treasury had informed the House, that he would, in a few days, propose to its consideration a plan of conciliation. He sincerely wished it might succeed; but he had every reason in the world to believe it would not. A previous confidence between the parties was the very basis of every species of treaty-making. The noble lord himself would not venture to say, that was the case between ministers and the present governing powers in America. It was well known, that every possible occasion had been given by the present administration, to fix in the breasts of the people of America, and their leaders, the most rooted hatred and inveterate rancour. Under such circumstances of disappointment and disgrace on one side, and such provocations on the other, he would appeal to the candour of those whose dispositions might carry them to the greatest lengths, in point of expectation, whether there was the most distant prospect of any good arising from a treaty, when conducted by men on the part of Great Britain, who were execrated from one end of the North American continent to the other-men, whose best and sincerest intentions would be only interpreted as lures to ensnare and betray. He was ready to give the noble lord all possible credit for his candour; but. [3 A] He concluded in nearly the following words: The moment is critical. I do not think, notwithstanding all that has happened, but the colonies may, by proper measures, be yet brought back to a state of constitutional obedience; and that we may once more recover their affections. If there be a man, who has served this nation with honour to himself, and glory to his country; if there be a man, who has carried the arms of Great Britain triumphant to every quarter of the globe, and that beyond the most sanguine expectations of the people; if there be a man of whom the House of Bourbon stands more peculiarly in awe; if there be a man in this country, who unites the confidence of England and America, is not he the proper person to treat with America, and not those who have uniformly deceived or oppressed them? There is not one present, who is ignorant of the person to whom I allude. You all know that I mean a noble and near relation: [lord Chatham.] He is the man whom his Majesty ought to call to his councils, because the Americans revere him, and the unbiassed part of the nation would most cheerfully trust their dearest interests with him. I know the little paltry Insinuations which may be thrown out against the language I now hold; and can only say, that I despise them as much as I shall do any man capable of using them: and knowing that there is not the man nor the object in this country capable of making me cross that board against my opinion, I trust that this House will at least give me credit for the sincerity with which I deliver it; and if it shall be found, that it is to him to whom the nation looks forward for its salvation, it is a duty which I am bold to say his Majesty owes to his people, to avail him. self of such respectable assistance. Lord North said, as he never meant to negociate away the rights of this country, to procure himself any temporary conve nience, so he never wished to encroach on those of America. His own private opinion had never varied: but if his proposition should not meet with the approbation of the majority of that House, or if it should undergo any alteration, in either event, he would gladly acquiesce. As to the favourable disposition of America towards individuals or parties in that or the other House, by every thing that had yet appeared, all men and all parties seemed equally obnoxious to them; and whenever propositions came to be made, he was inclined to believe the object of the colonies would not be, who it was that made them, but whether they were such as answered their own expectations. For his part, he was ready and willing to resign the disagreeable task to whoever was thought better qualified, and was contented to accept of it. He wished as sincerely for pacification as any person in either House; and so the end was obtained, it was a matter of no consequence to him by whom, or in what manner it was obtained. He then spoke to the question, and was against the motion, saying, that even though he had approved of the purport of the motion, he could not agree to it while there remained so great a difference in the calculation, between the hon. gentleman who made it, and the noble lord from whose particular office the papers came. If, therefore, the motion was not withdrawn till the difference in calculation, which was in the proportion of sixteen to one, was reconciled, he should move to report progress. Mr. Burke remarked, that the senti ments and promises of the minister, were constantly in a state of contradiction to each other, in respect of every matter relative to the American war. Lord Ongley was against the motion, and declared himself to be against any measure of accommodation, short of compelling America to acknowledge the supreme right of parliament. Sir Richard Sutton spoke to the same purport, and expressed his disapprobation of the resolution, as only tending to encourage our rebellious subjects in America to refuse every reasonable plan of accommodation which ministers might think proper to offer them. Lord Nugent was against the resolution. He was satisfied that ministers had pur sued the best measures, though they had unhappily failed. As there was so immense a difference between the accounts of the two hon. gentlemen, he could not General Conway said, if his hon. friend had been mistaken, it must be because he was led astray by the manner the papers were made out. This, however, could not affect the truth of his other resolutions, though he had been mistaken in one or two; but he was convinced that every one of them was substantially correct. The House divided on the motion that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again, Ayes 263, Noes 149. Debate in the Commons on the Navy Estimates.] Feb. 13. In the Committee of Supply, see, till that was settled, how it was possible for the debate to be continued. He disapproved of this enquiry from the beginning; and experience had taught him, that a multiplicity of papers served not to inform but to perplex; and related the following anecdote, in proof of his general assertion. The late king, soon after his accession, told sir Robert Walpole, that he would himself see all papers of confidence, before any measures were taken upon them. Sir Robert was alarmed, and went to consult his brother Horace, what was best to be done. Horace, seeing him so uneasy, laughed, and advised him to give the king more than he asked; "Give him all the papers, and I dare say, he will soon have enough of them." Sir Robert took his advice, and carried him a cart full, telling his Majesty, that he had paid several extra clerks, to assist in getting more ready; and informed him further, that he believed, when the whole were copied, they would fill five carts more. The king told him, he need not get any more ready till he heard his further directions on the subject; the consequence of which was, that sir Robert never heard a syllable more of papers from his majesty as long as he remained in office. His lordship concluded with moving, that the chairman report progress. Mr. T. Townshend replied, that the hon. gentleman's twelve resolutions did not amount to twelve cart-loads, nor did all the papers called for; but if the noble lord who controverted the truth of some of the resolutions sent in papers of a different complexion to those he spoke from himself, and which he held in his hand, it was no wonder there were mistakes in the calculations, and just such mistakes, too, as the noble lord pleased. Colonel Barré, after maintaining the truth of the resolutions, observed on the proposition promised by the noble lord in the blue ribbon, that he expected no good from it, as the conduct of ministers had, from the first of the American business, been shuffling, both to this country and the colonies. Mr. Fox insisted that 20,000 men had been lost, at least the greater part of them, to this country, though they were not all slain in battle; and he defied the noble lord to prove where 6,000 of them, including prisoners or sick, were to be had; for that by the last returns the British and foreign troops amounted to no more than 28,000, though we paid for 48,000 men. Mr. Buller moved, That 781,911. be granted for the ordinary and extraordinary services of the navy for 1778. With respect to the estimates of both these services, he said, that they did not differ very materially from the grants of preceding years. Mr. Temple Luttrell remarked, that a noble lord (Mulgrave) had, on a former day, accused him of using too severe a language towards a noble earl at the head of the navy department. This he disavowed; he had, indeed, charged that person with dangerous and gross errors in his public capacity; and he held it incumbent on him to support such an attack by very substantial proofs, which he was now ready to undertake; he had been also allowed the last official returns of the squadron of Jamaica, "lest, as was thrown out, by a formal opposition to his request, he might presume the motion made by him was of some material consequence." He had, at the same time, been told, with a contemptuous sneer, "that he might go home with what glee he was master of, fully persuaded that the British navy was not in the bad state he had flattered himself to be the case." For his part, he could never admit, that, in a house of parliament, the importance of any public question was to be adjudged from the indi. vidual weight of the member, who suggested it; in that House all members were equal; and from whatever quarter a motion might originate, it ought to stand or fall by its own intrinsic merits; neither did he, by any means, rejoice in the calamitous state of the British fleet; he thought he had given the strongest and clearest demonstration of his earnest wishes to have the navy restored to its former flourishing condition. He denied that the estimates were materially the same as in other years the extraordinary sum total |