prove that the Americans employed the Indians first.

The Earl of Denbigh attacked lord Chatham, and called him the great oracle with the short memory, asserting that the Indians were employed last war, that the returns of the army must have shewn it, and that as his lordship, when in office, always contended for guidance and direction, he could not be ignorant of the matter if he had not lost his memory.

The Earl of Dunmore declared that the Virginians had used every effort to induce the Indians to join them, and that the chiefs of one of the Indian tribes to whom they applied, had made answer, "What, shall we fight against the great King over the water, who in the last war sent such large armies, and so much money here, to defend you from the devastations of the French, and from our attacks? No, if you have so little gratitude, we will not assist so base a purpose." His lordship added, that the Virginians, finding themselves thus disappointed, had dressed up some of their own people like Indians, with a view to terrify the forces under him; and his lordship declared, he heartily wished more Indians were employed; that they were by no means a cruel people; that they never exercised the scalping-knife, or were guilty of a barbarity, but by way of striking terror into their enemies, and by that means putting an end to the further effusion of blood.

The Duke of Richmond said, he wished not to employ savages, who wantonly tortured our fellow-subjects with the scalping-knife and tomahawk, and were then to be defended on the ground of having been "cruel only to be kind," of having committed murder, cold-blooded murder, in order to put an end to a war in which they had no interest.

The Earl of Dunmore rose again to shew how much the Americans exceeded the Indians in barbarity, instancing a great variety of circumstances, and among others the fate of colonel Campbell, to prove that they did not even affect humanity, but were most industriously cruel, most wantonly inhuman.

The Duke of Richmond believed there had been very dark and bloody proceedings in the scene of action alluded to, and trusted a day of enquiry would come, when these horrid transactions would be enquired into, and the authors meet with condign punishment, if they should be found to deserve it.

The Earl of Dunmore replied, as far as the allusion might be meant to affect him, he was ready to submit his conduct to the most rigorous enquiry; and the sooner the better. He had done his duty as a servant of the crown; and as to his personal conduct, he defied his enemies; for he was fully conscious of having behaved like an honest man.

The Earl of Chatham again called on lord Amherst to know, whether he had any instructions from him as secretary of state.

Lord Amherst. I was desired to make treaties with the Indian powers; I was charged with it in my instructions.

The Earl of Chatham still persisted in declaring his ignorance of any such instructions; and said, he was sure, they did not pass regularly through his office, nor were ever signed by the King.

The Earl of Suffolk said, that all instructions to governors and commanders in chief necessarily came through the office of the secretary of state, and were countersigned by the King.

The Earl of Chatham rose finally, to beg, that lord Amherst would favour him with a copy of the instructions sent to him last war, which authorised him to employ savages.

Lord Amherst said, he would readily oblige him, with his Majesty's permission. The House then divided on the Earl of Chatham's Motion: Contents 19; NotContents 40.

Debate in the Commons on Mr. Fox's Motion for an Enquiry into the State of the Nation.] Dec. 2. Mr. Fox informed the House, that, agreeably to his promise, he rose to move the House, that on a future day they should form themselves into a committee of the whole House, to consider of the State of the Nation. He thought it necessary, he said, to explain the meaning and extent of the several motions he meant to propose, which he would do in a very few words. He meant then, that the Committee should consider the expences that the nation had incurred in consequence of the American war, and the resources that we possess to raise the supplies necessary for its continuance. In the second place, the loss of men from that war. Thirdly, the situation of trade, both with regard to America and the foreign markets. Fourthly, the present situation of the war, and the hopes that we may rightly entertain from its continuance,

and the conduct and measures of the present administration, of a lasting peace, and also our present situation in regard to foreign powers. And fifthly, to consider what progress sir William and lord Howe have made in consequence of the powers intrusted to them as commissioners, by an Act of the 16th of his present Majesty's reign, for granting pardons, &c. for the purpose of bringing about a peace between Great Britain and the colonies. Under these general heads, many other enquiries would arise, and it would be the business of the Committee to follow every path that promised to lead to a thorough investigation and discovery of the real state of the nation. If, continued he, it appears that the nation is in a bad state, and that the late and present measures of administration have reduced us to an extremity, which he was afraid they certainly had, a new system must be introduced, and a new set of ministers appointed; but if, on the contrary, the nation should be found in a flourishing state, and the present measures likely to prove successful, the present system should be, by all means, continued, and the present ministers remain in power; for none, he was assured, but the present ministers, could prosecute the present system. He concluded with moving, "That this House will, upon Monday, the 2nd of February next, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider of the State of the Nation."

Lord North said he cheerfully agreed to the motion, and would do all in his power to promote the great end he had in view. Nothing would give him more true delight, than to convince the House that the state of the nation was much more flourishing than many of the opposite side actually did, or affected to believe. At the same time he wished to be understood, that his ready compliance with the motion should not preclude him from objecting to papers being laid before the House that might prove inconvenient, or hurtful to the country.

The motion was agreed to: and the House was ordered to be called over on the 2nd of February.

Mr. Fox rose again, and moved, "That there be laid before this House: 1. An Account of all the men lost and disabled in his Majesty's land service (including marines serving on shore, and all foreign troops in British pay) by death, desertion, captivity, wounds, or sickness, in any province of North America, since the 1st of November, [VOL. XIX.]

1774; distinguishing each year, corps, and service. 2. A List of the different ships and vessels of war, and hired armed vessels, which have been employed in his Majesty's service in North America, since the 1st of November 1774; together with the number of men lost or rendered unserviceable in each ship or vessel respectively, by death, desertion, captivity, wounds, or sickness; distinguishing each head. 3. General Returns of the hospitals in North America, made up from the 1st of November 1774 to the 1st of October 1777 ; together with the state of them, according to the last returns; distinguishing the numbers of men of all denominations which have died or recovered during the abovementioned period. 4. An Account of the ships of war and armed vessels, appointed as convoys to the trade of this kingdom and Ireland, since the passing in the 16th of his present Majesty, the American Prohibition Act; distinguishing the names and force of the ships appointed, and the particular dates and services upon which they were so appointed as convoys; together with the notices given to the traders of the time prefixed for their sailing, and the actual times at which they sailed respectively. 5. An Account of his Majesty's ships of war which have been employed, since the passing of the said Act, as cruizers for the protection of the trade of this kingdom and of Ireland, the stations of such ships, and how long ordered to continue thereon, with the times of their going to sea, and returning into port. 6. Copies of the last general monthly return of the forces in Great Britain. 7. Copies of the last general monthly return of the forces in Ireland. 8. Copies of the last general monthly returns of his Majesty's forces, as well foreign as British, in North America and the West Indies."All these motions were agreed to. He next moved for "Copies of all such Papers as relate to any steps taken for the fulfilling of that clause of an Act, passed in the 16th year of his present Majesty, intituled An Act to prohibit all trade and intercourse with the colonies of New Hampshire, Massachuset's Bay, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New "Jersey, Pennsylvania, the three lower counties on Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia, during the continuance of the present rebellion within the said colonies respectively; for repealing an Act, made in the 14th year of the reign of his [2 L]

present Majesty, to discontinue the landing and discharging, lading or shipping, of goods, wares, and merchandize, at the town and within the harbour of Boston, in the province of Massachuset's Bay; and also two Acts, made in the last session of 'parliament, for restraining the trade and 'commerce of the colonies in the said Acts respectively mentioned; and to enable any person or persons, appointed and authorised by his Majesty to grant pardons, to issue proclamations in the cases, and for the purposes, therein mentioned; by which, persons, appointed and authorized by his Majesty, are empowered, under certain conditions, to declare any 'colony or province, colonies or pro'vinces, or any county, town, port, district, or place, in any colony or province, to be at the peace of his Majesty; and also that his Majesty would be pleased to direct, that a Return of such colony or province, colonies or provinces, county, town, port, district, or place, in any colony or province, as has or have been declared to be at the King's peace, pursuant to the powers of the said Act, be laid before this House."

Lord North said he must object to this motion. He was ready to grant every reasonable information in his power; but he could not consent that discoveries should be made prejudicial to the true interests of this country.

Mr. Serjeant Adair could not see what discovery could be made, in the least injurious. None was called for that the Americans did not know already. They must only be withheld, he presumed, because they might prove injurious to admi

nistration.

Mr. Hans Stanley objected to the motion. Negociations to rebels in arms, must be made, not to the people at large, but to select bodies, perhaps to individuals; and the discovery might draw upon them the vengeance of the others. But, in truth, he knew not that any negociation had been entered into. With rebels in arms, standing up for independence, no treaty of conciliation could be made. The very proposition acknowledged their independence.

Mr. Burke observed, that he never knew the noble lord (North) to behave with so much candour and generosity; he had agreed to every tittle of his hon. friend's request; he had published a bond wherein he granted all; but in the end was inserted a little defeasance, with a power

of revocation, by which he preserved himself from the execution of every grant he had made. His conduct reminded him of a certain governor, who, when he arrived · at his place of appointment, sat down to a table covered with every dainty and delicacy that art, nature, and a provident steward could furnish; but a pigmy physician, who watched over the health of the governor, excepted to one dish, because it was disagreeable; to another, because it was hard of digestion; to a third, because it was unhealthy; and in this progressive mode, robbed the governor of every dish on the table, and left him without a dinner. He exposed the folly of the idea, that we must not negociate with the Americans until they had renounced their claim of independence. Are they not, he observed, in possession? Are they not independent, de facto? They possess the whole country of America. What we have, we have gained by arms. If we have a government in America, it is founded upon conquest, since they set up their independence; and as they enjoy the right, de facto, and we alone de jure, we must and ought to treat with them on the terms of a fœderal union. He instanced the supposition of a treaty with France. The king of Great Britain enjoys the right de jure to the kingdom of France; the French king enjoys it de facto; he is merely a congress usurper; and yet would it be argued, that no treaty of peace could take place with him until he had renounced his claim? He wished the House to consider the effects that would arise from a renunciation of their independence. By renouncing their independence, the Americans acknowledged their rebellion; by acknowledging their rebellion, they acknowledged their crime; by their crime they were deprived of their rights and obnoxious to punishment. In such case, no treaty could be made consistent with the honour of the British name; so that terms of negociation must be entered into during their independence. He said, that the Act on which lord and sir W. Howe were vested with their commissions, proposed two methods to be prosecuted to bring about a peace; the one by force of arms, the other by terms of conciliation. It would be necessary to inquire if both these methods had been practised; the first, he was sensible had been indeed tried, but he was afraid the second had not, else why were not New York, Staten and Long Islands, with any other territory we are in posses

Mr. Dunning highly approved the motion of his hon. friend, and hoped he would persist in it to its full extent. Thus indefinite, the Committee may enquire into every transaction of the commissioners, and from that investigation, every measure of the ministry, relating to the same end, would be laid open. At the same time he owned, if his hon. friend had applied to him as a counsel for advice on the propriety of making such motion, he certainly should have objected to it, and that for this plain reason that such motions now-a-days produce nothing but an answer. He then reverted to the arguments of Mr. Stanley, in regard to the discovery of individuals by the exposure of papers. He saw no danger that could attend such exposure. If A. B. C. and D. have been engaged in a fair and equitable negociation, what hurt could follow from the discovery of their names? It is not to be supposed, that. any unfair treaty has been entered into, for it is a self-evident proposition, that tampering with an individual in an indirect manner, could produce no decisive effort. He begged the House to consider the peculiar propriety of the present motion. The commission to lord and sir W. Howe, followed upon an Act originating in this House; and it was the duty of this House to examine the transactions that had followed their appoint

ment.

The Attorney General replied to Mr. Dunning, and was contending against the ill policy of giving such information at the present critical moment; when news came from the Lords, that the ministers in the upper House had agreed to the same motion. This intelligence produced a great deal of laughter amongst the minority, and the whisper reaching the Attorney General, threw him into a little confusion; but having recovered from it, he quitted the defence of administration, and said, that let ministers do as they pleased in this or any other House, he, as a member

Mr. T. Townshend said, that government had poorly excused the failure of the first negociation, by saying the Ame ricans had set up for independence, would not depart from that claim, and for that reason the negociation failed. The Congress, on the other hand, declare, that it broke off, because commissioners could not, or would not shew their powers and commission. If the reason on our side be true, what reprehension does not administration merit, for not sending their commissioners before the claims of independence were set up? He averred, that the commissioners were not sent out till six months after passing the Act. This criminal negligence gave rise to the claim of independence; that alone roused them to a sense of their situation, and the danger that hung upon them. He said, he was more surprised at an anecdote, that instant brought into the House, than ever he had been at all the former instances of ministerial absurdity. We are told here, that the papers cannot be laid before the House, because the discovery may be hurtful to administration; they may contain circumstances inconvenient to be known, injurious, and perhaps fatal to the state. Such was the language of the noble lord, and yet, mark the consequence, the motion had passed in the upper House. The papers, and a full disclosure of every hurtful, inconvenient, injurious, and perhaps fatal circumstance, is to be laid before the House of Lords. Is this a language proper for this House? Is this a treatment that the representatives of freemen can bear? We are not to be trusted; we must not know secrets; our superiors, indeed, may search into the state of the nation, but we are too dangerous or too insignificant to be trusted. I will make no further comment on this affair; it is one of those glaring abuses which strike to the heart without elucidation.

Lord North assured the House, that, notwithstanding what had happened in another place, he was still of opinion that the motion, as it then stood, was of an extent which sound policy could not agree with. There was one paper in particular which he thought highly improper to be made public, namely, the instructions to

lord and general Howe. It was dangerous and unprecedented to give such papers to the public pending a negociation. Had the motion been in a more narrow compass, and related only to the steps taken in consequence of their power, he would have readily joined with the hon. gentleman who made it. If the motion was carried in another place, he presumed it might be with such qualification; at all events, he had one consolation: gentlemen would be convinced at least, that it was not from any motives of personal fear or conscious culpability, that the King's ministers had desired to withhold the information moved for. Whatever effect the anecdote brought into the House might have on the House at large, he should, for his own part, adhere to his former opinion. He thought it extremely disorderly to mention what passed in another House, in order to influence the determinations of this. What the other House had granted was nothing to this. The Commons were not to be guided in their deliberations by any extrinsic consideration whatever. They were an independent body, and he hoped they would not change their sentiments, merely on the account of an unauthenticated anecdote. The King's servants in the other House were most certainly intrusted with the secrets of administration: they were consequently competent judges for themselves, what ought, and what ought not to be disclosed; but, for his own part, he still adhered to his former opinion, that no part of a negociation ought to be made public, till it was finally concluded, or broke off.

:

Mr. I. Townshend contended, he was not disorderly that nothing was more usual, than to take notice of what passed in the other House; that a knowledge of each other's deliberations and generals entiments was the prime motive for relaxing the respecting standing orders of each House, and opening their doors to each other; and that as to the case immediately before them, he should mention a particular circumstance, which happened but a few days before in the other House; when a motion being made for papers by a noble duke (of Richmond) it was objected to by a noble earl in office (Suffolk,) but when the noble duke replied, that a similar motion had been agreed to in the other House, the noble lord withdrew his oppo

sition.

Mr. Dunning took merit to himself, for

being the cause of continuing the debate, since it had introduced an anecdote of the utmost consequence, and which he hoped would penetrate to the heart of every member. He was sorry that the learned Attorney General affected to be ignorant of the terms minority and majority; he was certain, if he pleased, he could give a very clear definition of them, for he was occasionally an adherent of both. He did not think, however, that the noble lord would be in a minority, unless he had given instructions to some of his adherents to leave him. Here the Speaker called him to order, when he declared, he bad broke no point of order, and thought himself justified in proceeding. That the noble lord would be of a majority he was convinced, and therefore he could wish to address himself to the members who would compose that majority. He begged them to consider the manner in which they were treated; they were held unworthy to be trusted with a secret; and yet this mighty secret was thrown upon a board in another place, that every news-paper reader in London might be trusted with it.

Governor Johnstone adverted in a ludicrous manner to the artificial passion into which the noble lord had worked himself up: he apologized for him, by observing, that it was nothing wonderful to see a minister very angry indeed, at being left in so awkward a situation, He said, the war had been called the war of parliament; it was made in assertion of the pretended rights of parliament; it was begun, carried on, and supported by parliament, and must be ended by them alone. Where the war originated, there peace should originate-in that House: the propositions of peace must come from them, or there never would be a peace at all. The restraining Acts must be first abolished; those unjust and impolitic Acts, which, by condemning the innocent equally with the guilty, made it the interest of our friends to league with our enemies; and, as a necessary consequence, did actually produce that very independence which now seemed to stand so much in the way of our negociators. He said, the Congress was in general composed of gentlemen as liberal and respectable as the members then siting with him; there were, indeed, about four or five factious spirits amongst them, who have been enabled to carry their views to the height they have done, by no other means than the violent obstinacy and