might be issued officially, as an arrear due national disgrace, than to have the first to the subjects of the landgrave, or rather prince of the blood, the sovereign's next the landgrave himself; yet out of a kind brother, a fugitive, or a kind of pensionary of deference,or condescension, ormodesty, at Rome, not from any extravagance of or whatever his and the noble lord's friends his own, but merely from the extreme may interpret it to be, his lordship, I pre-scantiness of his income, which was known sume, by the advice, or at least with the to be inferior to that of several private approbation of his hon. friend, comes to gentlemen in both kingdoms; nay, he beparliament. As he first doubted, was lieved inferior to the regular receipts and afterwards satisfied, and was finally con profits of many persons concerned in trade vinced, does the hon. gentleman begin to and commerce. The peculiar hardships doubt again ? He certainly does, or he and sufferings of the royal brothers became must confess himself guilty of great impru- still more exaggerated, and were rendered dence and possibly injustice; for suppose more irksome and mortifying, when they the resolution should not be agreed to, were contrasted with the enormous sums though the hon. gentleman is convinced granted for the support of the dignity and that the claim is just, and the money safely splendour of the crown, while both were issued by the board at which he sits, the tarnished and disgraced, and the money claim would be, nevertheless, for ever re. thus generously given employed in purprobated, and the claimant unjustly de- poses of corruption, and squandered away prived of his demand.

on the most worthless, to a degree of proThe House divided; Ayes 50; Noes 42. fusion, unknown to any civilized state in

Europe. The royal duke, now at Rome Debate in the Commons on Sir James for the reason now assigned, is in the line Lowther's Motion for an Address relative of succession to the crown, and has had a to the Income of the Royal Brothers.] child born in that capital, and living, who May 9. Sir James Lowther moved, “ That may possibly sit on the throne of these an humble Address be presented to his realms. I will allow that such an event is Majesty, to express the just sense this not very probable ; but it is sufficient for House entertains of his Majesty's regard my purpose to contend, that it may hapfor the lasting welfare and happiness of his pen. What, then, would be the consepeople; and, as this House cannot omit any quence? But that you must of course be opportunity of shewing their zeal and regard governed by a prince not only born, but for his Majesty's honour, and the prospe- educated at Rome. He flattered himself rity of his family, humbly to beseech his that he had been uniform in the whole Majesty, that, in consideration of the high course of his parliamentary conduct; that rank and dignity of their royal highinesses he liked to speak his sentiments freely and the dukes of Gloucester and Cumberland, openly; for that truth being his object, he he would be 'graciously pleased to maké always pursued it to the best of his knowsome addition to their annual income, out | ledge. He was liable to error and mistake, of the revenues cheerfully granted his but he liked candour and steadiness of Majesty for the expences of the civil go conduct so well in others, that he should vernment, and better supporting the ho- endeavour to practise it himself. He ad.. nour and dignity of the crown ; and to mired it even in a warm opponent, a perassure his Majesty, that this House will son whose political sentiments were known enable his Majesty effectually to perform to be so directly opposite to his; the perthe same, as nothing will more conduce son he meant was the right hon. gentleto the strengthening of his Majesty's go. man on the floor, (Mr. Rigby) who, he vernment, than honourably supporting the observed, since he first knew him, always dignity of the different branches of the spoke without reserve, and seldom changed royal family.” He began with warm en his party or his opinions. He said, he comiums on the many public and private was furnished with a strong argument in virtues of the two princes ; and observed, support of the present motion, by the very what a disgrace and reproach it was to the persons who constituted the constant manation, to permit their royal highnesses to jorities of that House. They must agree live in a state much below that maintained with him, because they maintained it in by several private gentlemen; a circum- debate, on a former occasion, that the nestance extremely unbecoming the dignity cessaries of life were greatly enhanced in of personages of their rank; that nothing their value; that the prevailing fashion of could convey a stronger appearance of the times, was to live in an increased state


of luxury, elegance, and splendour ; that concerning the disposal of what was his such an inevitable increase of expenditure own property, as much as that possessed call ed for a suitable increase of income; by any member of that House. In another that at no time within his memory, nor light too, it was more proper to let the that of any member then present, was the King, after he had been for some time in income of the royal dukes sufficient to the possession of his newly augmented remain tain their rank, nor at all adequate to venue, judge whether he could with

prothe most moderate and measured economy; priety, by accidental savings, increase the and th at the parallel held throughout, for incomes of his royal brothers. On the if the increase of the Civil List revenue whole, if the present motion was to have was necessary for the splendour and dig- any effect, in his opinion it would be that nity of the crown, a suitable support for of increasing parliamentary grants, and the those who were so nearly related to it, public burdens already become enormous. formed a part of that very dignity and

Governor Johnstone contended, that splendour. None could say that either there was nothing improper or unseasonwere maintained, if the King's brothers able in the motion ; that the average exwere doomed to suffer a kind of banish- penditure of the crown, for the last eight ment, in a state of poverty and obscurity, years, was full 20,000l. per annum under because they were not enabled by the the Civil List revenue; that the minister crown or the nation to live according to promised very considerable savings in all their rank in their native country. He the departments; and that, consequently, finally observed, that the application now it was fair to contend, that the motion was made to the throne was by no means un- both reasonable and seasonable ; and as to precedented; that such addresses had the propriety of the terms in which it was been frequent, and succeeded in more in- conceived, they were the same as those stances than one; particularly in respect made use of by the late celebrated Mr. of the late prince of Wales, father of his Pulteney, on a similar occasion. present Majesty, and the two royal bro. Mr. Rigby opposed the motion in the thers, who are the objects of the motion, most strenuous terms. He said, he had as

Sir Edward Astley seconded the motion, high a respect for the royal dukes as any observing, that the argument of similarity individual in that House, but, in his opiand relation, so judiciously urged by his nion, the motion would, if carried, have a hon. friend, were unanswerable. The most ludicrous, or rather ridiculous effect; gentlemen on the other side must agree it would be granting a sum of money to fully to it in all its parts. The expences his Majesty for his own particular pur. of living are increased; the means of sup- poses, and in the same breath almost deport must keep pace with it, say those siring him to apply it to different purposes. gentlemen. The dignity and splendour It was mere child's play, giving a thing in of the crown, from these circumstances, one instant, and demanding it ihe next, in call for such an augmentation. Is not order to bestow it on another. He then this every thing that the warmest friends turned with vehemence towards the chair, of the motion would wish to urge in its and arraigned the conduct of the Speaker support ; unless at the same time they will with great acrimony. He said, that though have the hardiness to contend, that the our burdens were heavy, and our expences royal dukes stand in a different predica- immense, our situation had been grossly ment from every other person in the king- misrepresented in a place, and in the predom; and hazard still a greater paradox, sence of those, where nothing but truth by saying, that the necessities and the should be heard. That the sentiments dehumble, unprincely situations of the royal clared at the bar of the other House to be: brothers, bear no affinity to the splendour those of this, were never so much as of the crown, or the dignity of the nation ? thought of here; that the Commons of

Sir J. G. Griffin, after objecting to the this kingdom knew better; that for one, propriety of the motion, and urging the he totally disclaimed them; and he was difficulty of discussing a subject of so deli- certain that a very great majority of that cate a complexion, involving in it the King House did so too. He trusted, that before and his royal brothers, proposed the pre- the House rose, it would be proved whether vious question.

the House thought with the Chair, or with Sir George Howard said, it was much him, whose sentiments, he said, were dimore decent to let the King exercise his rectly contrary to those delivered in the own discretion, than to dictate to him name of that House at the bar of the

House of Lords, on Wednesday last. He pences of the crown were at all concerned : then resumed his argument, and observed, this he instanced in the several heads of that that heroic prince, the late duke of salaries, pensions, secret service money, Cumberland, though his royal father's pe- ambassadors, &c. He then stated several culiar favourite, had no more than 15,0001. general reasons in support of the motion, per annum, till after the battle of Cullo- such as the increase of salary to the judges, den, when his income was augmented, for the overplus between the real expenditure his very eminent public services; not out for the eight last years, and the necessity of the Civil List revenue, but immediately there was to enable the royal dukes to supby the bounty of parliament, who settled port their high rank, both as peers of the an annuity of 25,0001. on him for life. He first order, and as being so nearly allied to repaid the compliments paid him by the the throne. He said, it had been always hon., gentleman who made the motion; the policy of this country, to make a suitand hoped he should always persevere in able provision for the different branches of the same steady line of conduct to the end. the royal family ; it rendered them indeWhether he acted right or not, he was pendent of ministers; and bound them by conscious he always intended it. As to interest and sentiment to preserve that the comparative income of the two royal constitution under which they enjoyed dukes, to that of several lords in this king. such pre-eminent and solid advantages. dom, he allowed, with him, that it was con- On the other hand, a royal family, in narsiderably less than several.

There were

row and dependent circumstances, are many rich lords, and many rich commoners. compelled to look up to the throne for Would the hon. gentleman, for instance, protection and support; and from the very wish that his Majesty should augment the nature of their situation, are liable to beroyal dukes' income, so as to be equal to come the instruments of the crown in the estate possessed by the hon. gentle- forging chains for their country. This, man himself? If he would, then most cer. he was certain, was at present entirely out tainly he must allow, that such an aug. of the case; the King was as averse to emmentation would lay a ground for another ploying them in effecting purposes so far application to parliament from the throne. from his heart, as they would be to comply

Mr. Fox said, he thought the motion with them, had he entertained sentiments was right, proper, and seasonable ; right, of a different kind. He concluded by obthat those who were so nearly allied to the serving, that there were many public and crown should have part of the public mu- private reasons for wishing to see every nificence, intended to promote every thing branch of the royal family happy and easy which might add to its splendour and dig. in their domestic circumstances. nity; proper, because no persons were Mr. Wilkes said, he stood up in his more competent to judge of the disposal of place, as an individual, to avow that the money than those who granted it; and bounty of parliament exceeded, by several seasonable, because no time could be bet- thousand pounds, the accounts delivered ter to urge the crown on such a subject, in; and he hoped that a proper addition, than when the sense of its own necessities, in consideration of that surplus over what and the generous conduct of parliament, the King's wants were stated to be, might might promise to make a favourable and be made to the income of the royal dukes. grateful impression. He dwelt on the in- Full of these sentiments, he should most creased price of provisions, and the com- heartily concur in the motion. parative value of money now, and during The previous question was then put, and even the last reign; and observed, that the House divided. The Noes went forth: though this argument was much relied on

Tellers. in support of the augmentation of the Civil List revenue, it applied much stronger in YEAS


Captain Johnstone the present case, because the increased value of the necessaries and conveniencies Noes

152 of life had a much stronger comparative

Sir George Howard operation ; he believed, in the proportion So it passed in the negative. of full three to one, on an income almost While the majority were in the lobby totally expended in those uses, than on a during the division, silence was enjoined, revenue, the greater part of which was and lord North, in an audible voice, gave issued in round : uns, with which neither notice, that other business of consequence the splendour, dignity, nor immediate ex- was to come on after the division, and, . [VOL. XIX.]


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said he, “ You are therefore requested not taking any particular notice of the censure to go liome.”

that right hon. gentleman had passed on

his conduct as Speaker of that House, he DEBATE IN THE COMMONS ON MR. begged that his Speech to his Majesty at SPEAKER NORTON'S SPEECH TO THE the bar of the House of Lords, on Wed. King ON PRESENTING THE BILL FOR nesday last, might be first read by the THE BETTER SUPPORT OF HIS MAJESTY's clerk : and the same being read accord Household.*] As soon as the preced- ingly (see p. 213.) he then appealed to ing question was determined,

the Journals for the Vote of Thanks, which The Speaker rose in his place, and followed on his return, to shew, that the begged leave to draw the attention and sentiments which he expressed to his Marecollection of the House, to what had jesty, when he presented the Bill for the fallen in the course of the debate from better support of his Majesty's household, the right hon. gentleman on the floor, were the sentiments of the House, and not (Mr. Rigby). Previous, however, to his his own particular sentiments, as had been

asserted by the last-mentioned right hon. * “ When the Speaker presents a Bill in the gentleman. While the Speaker was yet course of the session, in the delivering of which on his legs, up rose he thinks proper to make a Speech to the Mr. Rigby, who adhering to what had throve, the House of Commons, on their re- fallen from him in the former debate, spoke turn, have sometimes come to a resolution to of the Chair in terms very nearly borderdesire the Speaker to print his Speech; as they did on the 2nd of December 1761, when ing on disrespect. He insisted that he sir John Cust presented the Bill for settling a

had a right to animadvert on the Speaker's jointure on the Queen*; and on the 7th of Speech, or on his conduct, within or withMay, 1777, when sir Fletcher Norton presented out that House, if he thought it improper. the Bill for the additional sum to his Majesty's He was certain the Speech now read did Civil List; and on the 26th of May 1786, no convey his sentiments, whatever it wben Mr. Cornwall presented the Bill for might those of the 281 who voted for the establishing a fund for the discharge of the augmentation of the King's Civil List. National Debt; and these Speeches are then He said he had a right to appeal to the entered on the Journals. As the Speaker receives no instructions upon what particular Chair, and from the Chair, and would topics, or in what manner, be shall express never be intimidated, or led by any inhimself upon these occasions, it may happen ducement, to forfeit the privileges of a that he may, in the paine of the House of British senator. The Speaker was no more Commons, whose mouth he is, declare senti- than another member, and he was as free ments, which, though they coincide with the to differ from the Chair as from any other opinions of one part of the House, are eptirely individual in that House. He proceeded contrary to those of another part. This was the case in the Speeeh of sir Fletcher Norton, to great heat, which seemed to make the on the 7th of May 1777 : for, in a debate on the

Treasury bench uneasy. 9th of May, some allusions being made to this

Mr. Fox replied to the right hon. gen. Speech, as if the Speaker had used expressions tleman, and observed, that he had brought to the throne which he was not authorized to the matter to a direct decision; that was, use as the sense of the House of Commous, he had rendered it necessary for the the Speaker immediately called the attention Speaker to seek the sense of the House, as of the House to the subject, and desired a copy the charge was open and direct. The of his printed Speech might be read; and then Speaker had either misrepresented the demanded the judgment of the House, what he had said was liable to this objection. sense of the House, or he had not; as an The House, by a question put, declared, individual, he had disclaimed the senti• That Mr. Speaker did, upon that occasion, ments of the Speaker, as far as the same

express, with just and proper energy, the respected himself; and had plainly hinted • zeal of this House for the support of the that it was the opinion of a majority pre • honour and dignity of the crown, in circum- sent: it was coming to the point at once,

stances of great public charge. Under these and bringing the matter to a fair issue. difficulties, therefore, the Speaker can only, For his part, he suspected the Speaker did upon such occasions, endeavour to express not deliver the sentiments of the majority, wbat he conceives to have been the intention of the majority

of the House, and the principles though it was plain he did the sense of the upon which they appear to bim to have passed

House; because he was immediately the Bill.” Hatsell's Precedents, vol. 3, p. 146. thanked on his return, nem. con. as ap

peared by the Journals. The question, * See vol. 15, p. 115%.

then, which remained to be decided, was,

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Whether the Speaker had done his duty ? dropped a word or expression without any The truth, he believed, was, that the court intention, he wished that the motion might thought he had exceeded its by their so be withdrawn, and the affair be thus termihighly disapproving of the speech. He nated; for it was pretty evident, that was resolved, however, to take the sense though the Speaker might imagine lie was of the House by motion, which, if nega. delivering the sentiments of the House, tived, in his opinion, the Speaker could from hurry and inadvertency, it was possit no longer in that chair with reputation sible, he might not even have delivered to himself, or be further serviceable in his his own. He recommended warmly to station, after having been publicly de- the Speaker, and the friends of the 'moserted, bullied, and disgraced. He then tion, that the matter might be ended made the following motion :

without bringing it to a question. “ That the Speaker of this House, in The Speaker said, he understood that his Speech to his Majesty, at the bar of great pains had been taken without doors the House of Peers, on Wednesday last, to represent his Speech as not conveying and which was desired nemine contradi- the sense of the House. For his part, it cente, by this House, to be printed, did he erred, he did not err intentionally; he express, with just and proper energy, the meant to convey the opinion of the House, zeal of this House, for the support of the and looked upon himself fully justified both honour and dignity of the crown, in cir- in point of fact and precedent. If he miscumstances of great public charge.” represented what he meant faithfully to

The Speaker assured the House, that he convey, he trusted the House would exmeant to deliver nothing but their senti

cuse him.

He knew such addresses to ments. He thought he was justified in the throne had been frequent; he was what he said, considering the time, the sure they were proper. He said, he occasion, and the various current circum- thought it incumbent on him to let his Ma. stances which combined to stamp what he jesty know what was the sense of the offered with peculiar propriety. Conceiv. House ; and, in so doing, imagined he was ing, therefore, that he had discharged his acting in the faithful discharge of the trust duty, and that the same had been after committed to him: if the House thought wards publicly approved of, he could not otherwise, he could not, nor would not, think of remaining in a situation where he remain in that chair. could be no longer serviceable; which must Mr. Dunning said, the dignity of the be certainly the

case, if the present motion House was gone, if the Chair was permitted should be rejected.

to be degraded. It was plain the blow Mr. De Grey did not approve of the was altimately aimed at the House through word wants, in the speech. He said, such the Chair; and that the present was an an expression was disrespectful to the so- experiment, made purely with a view to vereign; and, in his opinion, the whole see to what a pitch of 'humiliation and speech conveyed a very improper idea to disgrace the House would bear to be foreigo powers in particular, who, presum- humbled and let down. It was, in fact, ing on its contents, might be tempted to an attempt of a court faction, to render disturb the public tranquillity.

the representatives of the people despi. The Speaker replied, that he thought he cable, as well as detestable, in the eyes of did not make use of the word wants, as it their constituents. could mean nothing. As to what effect Mr. Attorney General Thurloro entered his speech might have in foreign courts, into a kind of dissection of the Speech. or any other political consequence which He insisted, that it neither contained the might arise from it, he never considered. sentiments of the House, nor was it strictly He wished to express the sense of the supported by fact ; for, " the large preHouse ; he imagined he had done so ; and sent supply, &c. great beyond his Mahe could never think of sitting longer in jesty's highest wants, &c." did not exceed that chair, than while he was in the exer- 14,000l. which was represented in the cise of his duty.

speech to be “ a very great additional reMr. Welbore Elis said, he presumed venue." The great stress laid on the the Speaker delivered his own sentiments overplus might have been better spared, with great candour and sincerity ; and in as it would have been extremely mean, so doing, in his opinion, he acted a very when they were voting the augmentation, commendable part.

But as probably he to withhold the difference between the spoke without notes, and might have expenditure and the grant. He contended,

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