thought the boldest disciple of that great when we considered, that one of them, if master of paradox; and nobody, indeed, not more, had been increased by acts of could justly deny him the honour to which parliament subsequent to the Civil List Act. he aspired. His arguments had the merit The revenue he alluded to was that of the of being new and ingenious, but yet they Post-office, which was improved by restraindid not seem likely to make converts. ing the privilege of franking. According to Paradoxical they might be, but they did that principle, the people were to pay the not equal or come near the extravagance crown for the additional burthens that had of an assertion which he was sorry to hear been laid upon themselves. He was not fall from his hon. friend (Mr. Rice) “ that sure that there had not been more alterathe debts of the crown were the debts of tions in other revenues, which were forthe public, and however incurred, must be merly appropriated to the King's Civil paid by the public.” If this doctrine were List: if there were, the same argument true, what had the House more to do, than would apply to them. to come at once to the vote? No one that Another branch which had increased of walked the streets could doubt the exist- late years was the seizure of uncustomed ence of such a debt, and whether it was goods. He was at a loss to know how to produced by necessity or by the most scan- account for that increase. Smuggling, to sous profusion, was an object above their be sure, is of late years much increased, to consideration. The ministers of the crown a very dangerous height: but as the pubhad incurred the debt; the representatives lic lose a great deal more by the customs of the people were under an obligation to being defrauded by the smuggler, than pay it out of the purse of their consti- they get by the seizures, he could not tuents. He could not, however, persuade think it very just that they should pay for himself that, upon recollection, his hon. that loss. This matter would have been friend would continue to support that po- easier to ascertain, if the account of the sition: and indeed he thought he per amount of the duties formerly applicable ceived by his countenance that he wished to the Civil List, had not been made up to retract it.

very extraordipary manner: and what He then proceeded to consider the mo. is more extraordinary, is, that pains must tion itself as made by lord John Cavendish, have been taken to make it unintelligible. which he said, would be found to be the In 1726 those accounts were produced to constant practice of the House on mes- shew the amount, and likewise the defisages of this kind, except in the prece ciencies of those duties; every branch of dent of 1769, when the message was at revenue was thus stated separate, as it ras once referred to the committee of supply. received from the office of customs, ex. He thought there could be no suspicion of cise, post office, exchequer, &c. but in the a want of respect for the crown, in follow. present instance all those branches were ing the former precedents, which had an lumped together, and set down without - appearance more becoming parliament, as distinction in one column. The sums they implied a desire to examine into the given by different acts of parliament, and causes of the debt. The mode proposed which must always be the same in every at present was to pay the debt, and in year, were indeed separated into four cocrease the revenue without any such inves- lumns; by this means all investigation of tigation. He dreaded the principle upon the separate articles of the duties was care. which we were going to increase the Civil fully prevented: and if it was not for that List more than the vote itself. For it was purpose, that the account was made up in assumed, that the revenues applicable to this whimsical manner, it was not easy to the late king's Civil List being improved, assign the true reason. the King had a right to what was called He then observed upon the applications an indemnification for what his Majesty to parliament, on account of the Civil List, had casually lost, by accepting of the an- in the reigns of queen Anne, George the nuity of 800,0001. Now, he did not con- | 1st, and George the 2nd. As to queen ceive that it could be supposed that those Anne, when it was considered that she duties having been given upon a supposi. had contributed 100,0001. a year out of tion that they would amount to 800,0001. her Civil List, to the expence of the war, a year, or thereabouts, the crown had a as well as that the parliament had diverted right to the further amount of them, let some of the Civil List revenues to public them increase ever so much. That this services, it was unnecessary to say how argument was still more extraordinary just a claiın that princess had to the assistance of the public. In George the 1st's diminished, indeed, his own patronage by time, it is sufficient to say, that after it, which might be held as an objection to various endeavours of his Majesty to the practice, but he made a considerable extricate himself from the debts of the saving, by striking off useless places; the Civil List, that purpose was accom- persons who lost them were placed upon plished without any additional burthens the king's bounty list, and succeeded to being laid upon the public. The grants other employments upon vacancies. But to the London Assurance and Royal while lord Talbot was striking off places of Exchange companies, raised 300,0001. 2 or 3001. a year at one end of the palace, The Civil List bore the weight of the rest at another, new places and pensions of of its own debt. He was surprised to 5001. 1,0001. or perhaps 2,0001. a year were have heard it asserted, that the debts of the added to the civil establishment. From Civil List had been paid by parliament in this source rose originally the debt of the the reign of George the 2nd. 'His late ma- Civil List, joined to the necessary exjesty had, indeed, two sums granted him pences of coronation jewels, funerals, and by parliament, upon the account of the marriages of the royal family. During Civil List; 115,000l. in 1729, and 456,7331. the period of the first eight years of the in 1747. The first sum was granted upon reign, ministries were of so short a duaccount of the arrears of the Civil List re- ration, that it was impossible for any one venues, and was to be replaced at his de minister to make the necessary reducmise out of the out-standing arrears of tions after the debt was once incurred. those revenues, if those arrears, together The noble lord in the blue ribbon was with the 115,0001. should be more than the first who had it in his power; he sufficient to make up the produce of the has been seven years at the head of the said revenues, 800,0001. a year for his Treasury. Great additions have been majesty's reign. That sum was accord made to the royal income, by the deaths ingly replaced to the public, at his majes. of the princess of Wales, dukes of York ty's death, out of those arrears. The se. and Cumberland, and other branches of cond sum of 456,733l. was the deficiency the royal family. His Majesty, at the of the Civil List duties for the 7 years pre- beginning of his reign, paid 157,0001. a ceding 1747. To this the king had a year to the different branches of his famistrict legal right, by the Civil List Act ly: his royal predecessor paid, for the passed the first year of his reign. In nei- greatest part of his reign, from 130,000/. ther of these cases was the Civil List debt to 140,0001. a year, and besides kept table, laid before the House. The king asked at St. James's for many of them and their for no benevolence from his parliament, attendants. His late majesty, during the but strict justice. In fact, the Civil List life of queen Caroline, lived in splendour was in 1747 in debt very near 200,0001. in the summer at Hampton-court or more than the sum voted by parliament; Windsor, and since her majesty's death, but for that bis majesty thought he had at Kensington. no claim upon his people. It is observable, The noble lord had declared; that none that from that period to the resignation or of the expences were incurred for the dismission of the duke of Newcastle, the sake of influence. Another gentleman payments of the Civil List were never six had mentioned the period of sir Robert weeks in arrear.. After that noble duke's Walpole's administration, as a time when dismission, there was great talk of eco- that evil existed in a much greater degree nomy, but practice did not keep pace with than at present. Mr. T. differed widely professions; if we except the lord steward from the latter ; he believed, that when of the houshold, upon whom much unjust that gentleman considered the vast increase censure has been passed; he professed of all our establishments, the increase of economy, and practised it. In conse- our possessions in every part of the world ; quence of his reductions, the tables which the numerous and advantageous contracts remained were better served than they under government;

in a


patronage which were before: many tables were abolished; ministers have gained, through the mebut those for whom they were designed dium of the East India Company; to had board wages, by which they rather which may be added, the increase of debt, gained than lost, and a considerable saving and of officers in the collection of the rewas made for the king. Lord Talbot like venue, he would be inclined to retract his wise did another thing, which he recom- opinion : perhaps he would join with him mended to the imitation of others; he in thinking, that the influence of the


crown was nearly trebled since the time of by retrenchment of expences, was the sir R. Walpole. He observed, upon a only method by which those evils could be comparison of the suspicious articles of restrained. The noble lord would, in a Pensions, Annuities, and Secret Service, few weeks at farthest, call upon every gen. in the last eight years of the late king, and tleman in England, to contract bis ex. the eight years in which the present debt pences; let him set us the example. In has been incurred, a considerable exceed a committee upon the Message, the House ing in the latter period of 257,703. It might see where savings might be made. is observable, that the last eight years of If the noble lord was serious in his intenthe late king included the greatest part of tions of lessening the expences of the the late glorious war, during which there crowd, the authority of parliament would certainly must have been occasion for no strengthen his hands, and furnish him small sum of secret service money for pur- with a weighty answer to unreasonable soposes truly national.

licitors. Mr. Grenville, whose memory If the noble lord would set himself se- the noble lord sometimes affected to treat riously to work at a reduction of expences, with veneration, was not more conspicu- · he was confident, it might be effected with ously serviceable to the public in any part out meddling with any thing, in which his of his character, than in the steadiness and Majesty's private comfort, the dignity of perseverance with which he gave his nethe crown, or the service of the public gative to the importunate demands of rawere concerned. The foundation of his pacious and insatiable courtiers. confidence was this; that Mr. Grenville, If the noble lord was not sincere in his in office, as well as out of office, declared professions of æconomy, the committee the 800,0001. to be sufficient. Being call- could, and ought to controul him. With the ed upon to know if he intended to increase assistance of parliament, an honest minister the Civil List, that minister treated the might do great good. Without parliament report as a calumny. He said in the thought this was an object of enquiry, he strongest terms, that while he continued foresaw little good would be done. The minister, he never would ask for any aug. principle upon which this sum, and the mentation, or for any sum on account of increase of the establishment were dethe Civil List : perhaps that declaration manded, was a progressive one: he saw might be among the reasons of his dismis. plainly, that in making this demand, a sion. The noble lord chuses to avoid that foundation was laid for making further apconsequence, and says, “ God forbid that plications. Parliament ought to be wil. I should lose my office." When he is fully blind upon no part of this business. questioned upon the subject of the increase He was afraid, that this branch of the leof expence of the Civil List, he answers gislature had been for some time declining undoubtedly in a much more becoming in the opinion of the people. He, who manner than Mr. Grenville did, “ If you wished it to resume its former lustre and will contrive, that nobody shall be desir- importance, thought it could not seize upon ous of places and pensions, I will cease to a more favourable opportunity than the Jay burthens upon the public, to provide present. He thought no way could be for suitors for places and pensions." This more likely for them to regain the confi. answer never occurred to Mr. Grenville; dence of the nation, than by shewing perhaps it was not so well suited to those themselves, what it was their right and times, as to the present, any more than to their duty to be, the guardians of the the grave character of that minister. purse of the public, and with it of the liber

Upon the whole, Mr. T. was of opinion, ties of their country. that resolving the House into a committee Mr. Fox, after describing what he termon the Message, was a more parliamentary ed the wanton profusion of ministers for a measure, than referring it to the com- series of years back, in the several great mittee of supply: that in the latter, the departments of the state, and the shame. House could only consider of the sum to less prodigality which prevailed in the disbe voted; in the former, the whole ques. position of the revenues of the Civil List, tion would be open to discussion. A minute predicted a day of reckoning, when prodiscussion was necessary in times like bably ministers would not be permitted to these. The public burthens were increas. pass such accounts, as those lying on the ing rapidly; the power of the crown gain. table. He told the House, that he should ing ground upon the people in the same not go over the items that had been al. proportion. Economy, 'real æconony, ready mentioned ; and to which, there had

not as yet, even so much as the colour of | as we were in 1769, without any account. an answer been given. There was one He next attacked lord North on his denyarticle however, which he could not pass ing he was minister when he brought a over without mentioning; and presumed, like message, eight years since, and obit struck every gentleman present as well tained the object of his errand. This he as himself with astonishment. It was the treated as the most shameful and baresum of 513,0001. stated under the head of faced evasion. He declared the senti. the Board of Works, in the course of the ments of that administration, which from last eight years, without telling to whom his post of Chancellor of the Exchequer, the money had been paid, on what account of which he formed a part, he stood thereit had been paid, or on what palace, house, fore doubly bound, both as an individual, park, garden, or place, the money had and a member of the cabinet. In the next been expended. He observed the conduct place, as he was the bearer of the message, of the minister, in 1769, though the noble he stood pledged as the messenger, or the lord now disclaimed the appellation, was representative of the sovereign. The mesmuch less reprehensible than now. He sage was to demand a certain sum of money then acted openly, and came boldly to to pay the King's debts; the condition that parliament to demand a round sum, with accompanied it, though not contained in out account. “ I want the money; I can- the message, was, that no applications of a not wait ; grant it now, and you shall have like nature would be made hereafter. Who the account next year.” On this occa- was to impart them to the House? The sion, parliament had the option to grant bearer of the message, and no other. But, or refuse; to take his word, or disbelieve allowing that the noble lord was neither it. New men, new measures; the noble bound, as a member of the cabinet, an inlord tells you this day, very gravely, that dividual, or messenger representing his he was not then first minister; but that sovereign, he stood nevertheless in a mixt since, he has become one entirely on his official and ministerial situation, from which own bottom; that accounts ought to pre- it is impossible for him to recede; he came cede the grant; but when the accounts to parliament, as the minister of the House come to be examined, what do they turn of Commons, and Chancellor of the Exout? No accounts at all; but a detail of chequer. He was responsible as minister, arbitrary sums, for ought we know, set for his ministerial assurances, as much down according to the fanciful ideas of then, as at present; and as Chancellor of several persons who wrote them; and all the Exchequer, he was bound by the naconsolidated into one round sum, which ture of his office to know that his assuwe are called upon to grant out of the rances were founded in truth. Take, then, purses of our constituents, without being the matter in the noble lord's own way; satisfied that a single item is fairly or per- does he not stand on the precise ground fectly stated; unless we trust to the in- he did then? Did he not come in 1769, as tegrity of ministers, and the fidelity of well as in 1777, as minister of the House their subordinate instruments. Well, tak- of Commons and Chancellor of the Exing it for granted, that the sums are truly chequer, not as first lord of the Treasury, stated, why trouble the House with such and prime minister? But convict the noan account at all, unless to add mockery ble lord on any or all of these grounds, to contempt, and blend insult with deri- and he still imagines he can evade his pursion. When we had no account, we trusted suers. He says he never gave any such to ministers. Now that we have an ac- promise. Will his lordship rest his justicount, we are equally compelled to be sa- fication on that alone ? If he does, I pledge tisfied with their bare word. So, that myself to prove he did; if he will not, but taking the matter in its true light, the pre- will contend, that he is not bound in one sent proposition is neither more nor less, event by a promise, which he denies in the than a demand the minister makes on par- other, I submit whether in the opinion of liament for 618,0001, which he says was all impartial men, the noble lord be not expended in the public service; but of the in fact convicted on both grounds. If, reality of such expenditure, we properly however, he should still rest his defence, know no more than we do of any sum of a on his not being responsible for any acts like amount, expended by any prince in of his, ministerial or official, he would Europe. We are precisely as well in- nevertheless on the present occasion, out formed now how this debt was incurred, of regard to his own honour and character, by the curious account lying on the table, recommend to his lordship, to consent to the proposed Committee of Enquiry; be

CUMBERLAND. cause, if any malversation in office, any County, Henry Fletcher. waste of public money should have hap- Carlisle, Walt. Sp. Stanhope. pened, the blame would fall of course on

Cockermouth, James Adair.

DERBYSHIRE. his lordship, as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Not supposing that there existed Derby, lord Fred. Cavendish.

DEVONSHIRE. the least ground for any such imputation, County, J. Parker, J. Rolle Walter. he looked upon it to be peculiarly incum. Honiton, sir

G. Yonge, Laur. Cox. bent on his lordship, cheerfully to go into Exeter, sir C. W. Bampfylde. an enquiry, which, he presumed, would

DorseTSHIRE, turn out so much to his lordship’s honour. County, Hump. Sturt. He perceived that the charge of ambas- Bridport, T. Coventry. sadors was a very heavy one; besides, en

Wareham, right hon. W. G. Hamilton.

Poole, Jus. Mauger. voys and ministers were sent to every petty Shaftesbury, H. W. Mortimer, state; he knew the disagreeable predica

DURHAM. ment a minister, willing to make a reform, Durham City, J. Tempest. would stand in, were he to attempt it on

YORKSHIRE. his own strength. It would be prodi- County, sir G. Savile. giously irksome to be obliged to say to a Aldborough, Wm. Baker. secretary of state, who has so few appoint- Beverley, sir J. Pennyman, G. F. Tufnell. ments in his gift, “ I must strike off such Heydon, hon. L. T. Watson. and such envoys who are in your depart. Malton, Ww. Weddel, Savile Finch.

Knaresborough, lord G. Hen. Cavendish. ment, the state of the Civil List requires Northallerton, Hen. Peirse. it, &c.While, on the contrary, if a par- Thirsk, T. Frankland. liamentary enquiry was set on foot, and York, lord J. Cavendish. arrangements made to take place in con

Essex. sequence of such enquiry, in order to re- County, J. Luther. duce the expenditure, the blame would be

GLOUCESTER. shifted from the minister, and the super- County, sir Wm. Guise. Auous branches of the Civil List might be Tewkesbury, sir Wm. Codrington, J. Martin,

HEREFORDSHIRE. pruned, or totally lopped off, without giva County, sir G. Cornwall

. ing any direct offence to those who might,

HERTFORDSHIRE. on the mere personal interference of the County, Wm. Plummer, Thomas Halsey. minister, look upon themselves pointed at, St. Albans, J. Radcliffe. and ill treated.

KENT. The House then divided on lord John County, bon. C. Marshain. · Cavendish's Motion :

Cunterbury, Rd. Milles.


Lancaster, lord Rd. Cavendish.
S Mr. Thomas Townshend?

114 Literpool, Rd. Pennant.
Mr. Byng -


County, J. P. Hungerford. Noes Mr. Charles Townshend

281 2 Mr. Robinson

Leicester, hon. B. Grey.

So it passed in the negative.

Grantham, lord G. Sutton.
List of the Minority.

Lincoln, lord Lumley.


County, J. Wilkes, J. Glyno.
County, earl of Upper Ossory.

London, J. Sawbridge, Rd. Oliver, Rd. Bull, Belford Town, sir William Wake.

G. Hayley.

Reading, Francis Annesley.

County, sir Ed. Astley, T. W. Coke.

Lynn, hon. T. Walpole, Crisp Molineux.
County, earl Verney.

Yarmouth, hon. Rd. Walpole. Buckingham, James Grenville.

Norwich, sir H. Harbord.
Agmondeshum, Wm. Drake, jun.


County, T. Powys.
County, J. Crewe.

Peterborough, Rd. Benyon.

Northampton, bon. Wilb. Tollemache, sir G, County, sir Wm. Lemon.

Robinson. Liskeard, Samuel Salt.

Higham Ferrers, Fred. Montague. Bodmyn, G. Hunt.

NORTHUMBERLAND. Fowey, Phil. Rashleigh.

County, sir Wm. Middleton,


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