He hoped no noble lord would impute what he had offered as arising from blind zeal, or any improper predilection, for all he meant was no more than this; that when the noble earl's services were fairly estimated and balanced against whatever might by his strongest opponents be objected to his conduct, he doubted not, but justice and public gratitude would unite in preponderating the scale in favour of the Bill. He hoped the noble lords who had opposed the Bill, would re-consider the foundation of it, and if they did not find it agreeable to them to vote for it, would at least suffer it to be carried without a division, and without a negative. The Earl of Radnor said, he always understood the matter of the proclamation to be otherwise. He did not pretend to contradict the facts now stated; but he should ever think, that a proclamation was not sufficiently valid to supersede an act of parliament; and be the urgency ever so pressing, it was, in his opinion, establishing a very pernicious precedent; notwithstanding therefore what the noble lord had said, the impression on his mind was not removed. Lord Camden rose to explain this business relative to the proclamation. He began by confessing, that he was principally concerned in issuing the proclamation, and if there was any blame due, it was rather merited by him than his deceased friend. The fact was, the harvest had failed throughout Europe; there being a short crop, and a rapid exportation, there was the strongest reason to apprehend, that the consequence would be a famine within the kingdom. A council was immediately called, as without some speedy remedy, a dearth was looked upon to be inevitable: for no parliament was then sitting or likely to sit for forty days. It was debated in council what was the wisest step to take, and it was resolved to issue a proclamation, laying an embargo on the shipping, and preventing any corn from being exported. That measure was pursued from an idea that the day could never come, when parliament would seriously censure the only line of conduct possible to be adopted, in order to save the nation from being starved. He had, he declared, at the time consulted that great philosopher and politician Mr. Locke: whose Treatise on Government was one of the wisest books ever published; he did not know a single line of that work which he would not most willingly sub scribe to. Mr. Locke spoke clearly and fully upon the point. Ministers always act at their peril; they must, in cases of great emergency, take such steps as the exigency of affairs required, without hesitating as to the strict legality of their measures: and they must afterwards stand the judgment of parliament, and abide by the censure and applause of the legislative branches of the state. I looked upon it, said his lordship, to be such a case of necessity, as that stated by that truly great man, which justifies the interposition of the prerogative, between the laws and the people; a right to preserve, not to enslave or destroy; a right, I shall ever maintain the constitutional exercise of; end the abuse of which, I shall ever be as anxious to resist and punish: in short, I believed the safety of the state to be at stake. I advised its salvation, and can never be persuaded, when I did so, that I was committing a crime. Having the honour to be then in a very high post, (lord chancellor) I was more particularly`consulted; and if it was an error, I was solely to blame. As soon as parliament met, an indemnity was proposed; for my part, I was against it; because I thought it unnecessary. I was then persuaded, I acted right; nor have I had since any reason to retract my first opinion. His lordship owned that his defence on the occasion was a bold one; he had declared the issuing the proclamation was a strictly justifiable act of prerogative, an act of prerogative not only warranted by particular necessity, but supported upon general principles. Bold as his defence was, he was still willing to maintain it; and he assured the noble earl the fact was strictly as he had stated it; and in order to set him further right, respecting the conduct of the deceased noble earl, he assured him, he had been misinformed; for he well recollected, in the course of the debate, when his lordship was pressed for his opinion, his answer was, "If I must speak, I think the proclamation was illegal." His lordship renewed his argument in support of the present Bill; and after a variety of praises of the deceased earl, spoke particularly of the noble contempt of money for which he had been remarkable. His family had suffered by it materially; and latterly, the noble earl had, in consequence of that contempt, been almost left without a servant to attend his person. And so far was his pension from being an ample provision, it was little better than a clear 2000l. per ann. His lordship went more to the highest pitch of fame and prosat large into the affair of the earl of perity. He healed those factions, and Chatham's refusal of the office-perquisites restored unanimity; and by that means upon the subsidy, than lord Lyttelton, and declared that when the earl, in Mr. Charles Townshend's chancellorship of the exchequer, refused to take it, he was scarcely master of a thousand pounds. rendered the exertions of the nation irresistible; and he made no doubt if God had prolonged his life, and restored to him his talents, but he would once more have saved the British empire, if called The Duke of Richmond begged leave into power. The two noble lords who to differ from the two noble lords who opposed the Bill, said, that his services spoke last, in respect to the conduct of had ceased, since he ceased to act in a the deceased earl, concerning the embargo ministerial capacity; the contrary was well laid on the exportation of corn, contrary known: at the very instant when the stroke to the express orders of an act of parlia- of death overtook him, he was in the act ment. The conduct of the learned lord of attempting to save his country from (Camden) was precisely as he stated the ruin which he saw impending; and it; but that of the deceased earl very which he feared, if not timely prevented, different; for instead of acknowledging must involve it in certain destruction. the illegality of the proclamation, he per- His lordship observed, that the objections sisted to the last in defending it; and he to the Bill were supported on two grounds; remembered that as well as the noble and the danger of the precedent, and the dislearned lord, who now faithfully stated tressed state of the public finances. As the transaction, so far as he was concerned to the first, there was nothing more evihimself, he treated a parliamentary indem-dent, than that the precedent must of nenification as totally nugatory and unne cessary. The Earl of Shelburne rose, and spoke to the qusstion at large. He said in particular, that no man ever regarded money less than the deceased earl; and ridiculed the argument of the learned lord who spoke first, for supposing that the deceased earl had performed no services for his country, because he was not in actual employment: he said, he continually turned his thoughts to the service of his country, whenever his state of health would permit him; and that he imagined no man who had observed the conduct of public affairs for some years past, would be easily persuaded to believe, that remaining in office was performing any service for his country. As a further proof of the generous disposition of the deceased earl, and how much he was above every selfish motive, when put in competition with the good of his country, he assured their lordships, that there was not any one time, from his last resignation to his death, in which he might not have come into power, and that on his own terms. He was courted and adulated by every party and description of men; he resisted them all; and always acted a disinterested and independent part. He despised faction, whether in a court or elsewhere; and always set his face against the narrow prejudices of party. At a time, when this country was in a desponding state; when it was torn by factions, he raised it [VOL. XIX.] cessity prove serviceable to the state; and could be attended with no bad consequence; and as to the second, it fell of course. His lordship then went into the history of the motives which induced the Commons, in queen Anne's time, to refuse making the duke of Marlborough's annuity perpetual, in the first instance, which he attributed to factious motives and Tory principles. Even a Tory majority, in the other House, had now joined in an unanimous vote for the present Bill. Was there a party or description of men, or even an individual in the nation, who had not at some one period applauded his conduct, and courted him? His merits were acknowledged, by every side, in each House; whence, then, could the present opposition originate? If the state of the finances were the real objection, which he much doubted, their situation could not be mended, but by the exertion of such men (if any such there were) and how could their lordships expect that men of abilities would come forward, into difficult situations, to the neglect of their own immediate concerns, while the fate of this Bill, should it receive a negative, would present to them so mortifying a proof of national ingratitude? He begged leave to assure the noble duke (of Richmond), that however people might differ, as to the propriety of the proclamation, the urgent necessity of the measure was so apparent, that there was not a second opinion in council, when the [4 L] embargo on the exportation of corn was proposed. It was the only expedient left to prevent the people from starving, and if it was a mistaken measure, it was a mistake on the humane side. As to what subsequently passed in parliament on the subject, he could not precisely say; but as well as he could recollect, the deceased earl did not defend the legality of the proclamation, but merely the necessity. the necessity of holding out encourage, ment, by setting examples of national generosity, mentioned the Congress, who, he said, gave daily proofs of this species of policy. After giving them great credit for the wisdom of their proceedings, which, he said, was inferior to none, that ever appeared; observed, that rewarding those who deserved well, was the surest means of being well served. It was a maxim as old as time itself; and he was astonished how any noble lord should so far forget it as to oppose the present Bill, The Duke of Chandos complained of being very uncandidly treated in the course of the debate. He said, he had been accused of voting for a sum of money to pay the King's debts, in this and the last sessions; he certainly had so voted, and were the question again in agitation, he would again give his vote for the addition which had been made to the civil list, because he knew the receipt was not equal to the expenditure. The noble duke, and the noble His lordship then entered into several strictures on the conduct and sentiments of the noble duke who opposed the Bill: however insignificant his grace deemed himself, he was a person of singular weight in that House: his voice went a great way, and was heard by some persons with particular attention. He felt it frequently, and more than once was a witness to his moving the previous question in matters of great difficulty to ministers. He remembered, upon a very particular occasion, upon the determination of a matter of property, the noble duke's leaving his learned friend (lord Camden) in a mi-earl who spoke last had asked, whether he nority, by which means he was sorry to would go into an enquiry relative to the find that the House had now for three perquisites of placemen; he knew not years, on most occasions, lost the assist- that the King's servants now had larger ance of the learned lord's abilities, in the emoluments than those who held the same decision of learned questions. He was offices before them; until that was proved pointedly severe in this part of his speech to be the case, he certainly would not on the conduct of the noble duke, and the enter upon any such business; and as to unhappy interference of great court lords the superfluous sinecures, the noble duke on such occasions, who never failed to vote and the noble earl knew much better than with a majority at their heels; because it he did what such sinecures were, as they would discourage suitors from appealing had been in place; and if they knew that to the judicature of that House, in the the country was unnecessarily burthened, last resort, He would have been much they were criminal in not endeavouring to better pleased to see the noble duke exert lighten the public load. The noble earl his great personal influence, in removing had attacked him in a very personal and the causes of the present distressed state severe manner, on account of his attending of our finances; in enquiries into the ex-law appeals. He had ever considered it penditure of public money, than in opposing the only particular instance he recollected, in which a pension or annuity had been properly bestowed. Why did not the noble duke, when the addition to the civil list was granted, move for such an enquiry? would the noble duke move for rescinding that vote, and enter into the enquiry, and on finding what were the real exigencies of the crown, and what would be fairly adequate to supporting it with splendour and dignity, confine the addition to that, and that only? would he move for enquiry into the profits of places and sinecures? If he would, he should most readily assist every one of his endeavours; he would immediately second the motion. His lordship, after reverting to as much his duty, as a peer of England, to attend legal decisions as political debates; but he felt himself shocked to death that the noble earl should charge him, in the face of the public, with having rendered the property of individuals less secure than it otherwise would have been, He had never given a vote respecting law or politics, which had not accorded with his conscience. He could not help expressing his surprize, that any person should quote the conduct of the congress of America as an example for the British parliament. Were there no instances of an opposite nature which could be found in Europe? If there were not, the argument wanted its main support-that of precedent. Having repeated his objec tions to the Bill, the duke declared he had spoken merely as his conscience dictated; that he was as independent as any one member of either House, and had no other bias than his loyalty, and his personal attachment to his sovereign, and his firm persuasion, that the King's servants were men of sound judgment and unimpeached integrity. The Earl of Shelburne declared he had never accused the noble duke of want of ability to determine on law points, be had only talked of his weight and influence with their lordships in opposition to the duke's own declaration of his insignificancy. The noble duke had censured him for citing the Congress: much as he admired the conduct of that assembly, on most occasions, he protested he then cited the example no otherwise than as the example of an enemy; but if the noble duke wanted instances of the spirit of national reward, and national gratitude, nearer home, there was not a part of Europe which did not afford many. Let the noble duke cast his eye upon France; the great system of which government turned upon national rewards. They had not yet done paying honours to marshal Richelieu: and it was but the last year, that a monument had been finished to the memory of marshal Saxe. In a word, there did not exist a wise nation on the face of the globe that did not see the justice and the policy of such conduct. The Duke of Richmond replied to the last noble lord; he said, that the deceased earl was possessed of great virtues and abilities; but he was not infallible. He was in office for several years, had received great emoluments; and, if he quitted office -poor, it was a proof of a blameable inattention to his private concerns; or a very imprudent extravagance. The noble earl said, he might have come into office whenever he pleased. It might be so; but his refusal might be easily accounted for; he might fear that his own terms, though seemingly granted, might afterwards be departed from, broken, or explained away. The deceased earl confessed in his place, in that House, that he had been once before duped; perhaps the deceased earl dreaded, although he might seem to have the prescribing his own terms, that he should again run the risk of being duped and deceived. He looked upon the deceased earl to be a man of great abilities; and that his family were intitled to a provision from the public, on account of his services; but independent of those talents and services, he looked upon him to be liable to infirmities in common with the rest of his species. With regard to the low state of the public finances, he little expected to have heard any thing urged on that head by the supporters of adminis tration. Besides, the objection might be done away with the greatest facility, and without furnishing a single pretence for complaint. Let the 4,000l. a year to be granted by the present Bill, be taken out of the wardenship of the Cinque Ports, a sinecure of 5,000l. per annum, formerly worth no more than 1,500l. a year, but swelled to that enormous sum to oblige the old duke of Dorset, and continued so ever since. Or if the minister's merit for losing America was such that he ought not have a less sinecure place than this, let the proposed annuity be deducted from the enormous perquisites of the auditor of the exchequer, a sinecure of 20,000l. per annum, for doing nothing, or next to nothing, for signing his name barely about six times a year. The Earl of Shelburne agreed with the noble duke that this was no time for men who had any regard for their characters or peace of mind, to trust themselves into difficult situations; as besides the natural difficulties to be encountered or surmounted, many were to be feared, and few or none to be trusted. With regard to the late earl's having been duped or deceived, the charge was true; but he begged the noble duke to consider, that the earl had made the best atonement, a full and frank confession of his having been so duped and deceived; his lordship added, that few men, if any, were so truly careful and so successfully cautious as not to have been once duped in their life time. He would, for the noble duke, as well as for himself, express an earnest wish, that neither of them might hereafter have occasion to confess, that they had been duped and deceived into office; and that when they should be no more, there might be as good ground for praise, and as little scope for censure, as there was in the case of the late earl of Chatham. The question was put, and the House divided: Contents 42; Non Contents 11. Debate on the Earl of Derby's Motion for an Address relative to the Convention of Saratoga.] The Earl of Derby then resumed the business relative to the convention at Saratoga. He acknowledged it was now too late in the session to go into the question at large, nevertheless he thought it extremely proper, that ministers should acquaint the House and the nation with the difficulties which obstructed the faithful performance of the convention; because both a regard for the gallant men now prisoners in America, as well as public faith, made it necessary. That, as ministers had declined to do any thing in it, parliament should be acquainted with the nature and extent of the impediments, in order that it might be enabled to point out the speediest and most effectual means of removing them. His lordship moved, "That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, that he would be graciously pleased to order to be laid before that House, previous to their prorogation, all Information that has been received, relating to the Detention of the Army now in America, subject to the conditions of the Convention signed at Saratoga." Viscount Weymouth said, there was no blame imputed to any person respecting that affair; the only objection he had to the motion was, because it appeared extremely ill timed, just at the eve of a prorogation. As to the papers, if moved for in time, he would not have had the least objection to comply with the motion; nor could he give a specific answer, upon bare recollection, as to their contents. On the whole, therefore, considering that he could neither carry the substance of them in his mind, and that were they produced, they would break in upon the prorogation tomorrow, he would recommend to his lordship to withdraw his motion; otherwise he should find himself obliged to move the previous question, which he rather wished to avoid. The Earl of Derby told his lordship, that he ought to balance the necessity of the motion against the inconveniency of sitting a few days longer: that even in point of good policy, as well as humanity, ministers should consider what material service so brave and well disciplined a corps of veterans might, if released, be able to render their country at this important crisis. The Earl of Effingham supported the motion, on the ground last mentioned by the noble earl. He agreed with the noble viscount that there was no compelling the Congress to perform the convention on their part, as we had proved by fatal experience, that we were not able to compel them to do any thing: nevertheless, it was necessary that parliament should be informed what was the matter of difference, when it arose, and how best it might be remedied. Parliament were called upon to interfere, since ministers had declined any steps on their part; they owed it to the nation, as an act of duty, and they particularly owed it to the brave but unfortunate men who were suffering the most mortifying and painful chagrin, by being rendered unserviceable to the state, and left neglected in the hands of an enemy, who for several reasons could not be supposed to have any other feeling of regard for them but what the mere rules of war prescribed. The Duke of Richmond remarked, it was somewhat extraordinary, that the noble viscount had paid so little attention to an affair of so great consequence, as not to be able to recollect any part of the contents of the papers, which, if he performed his duty, he must have perused, nor of course give the least tittle of information to their lordships on the subject. Such a conduct merited censure. The noble viscount perused the papers, or he did not. If he did, and withheld information from the House, it was an act of great disrespect; if he had not perused them, which he could hardly think, his lordship was guilty of a very inexcusable piece of neglect. As to the prorogation, he hoped ministers would consider how dangerous it might be to prorogue parliament at so critical a season, when it was not only possible, but probable, their advice might be wanting, which could not be obtained until the end of forty days after issuing the proclamation for calling it together. The previous question being put, was agreed to without a division. |