ship of his boastings, and how far short the length runs away with the whole. Such a scheme, my lords, was a very proper sub-fleet was of being in a state of defence; ject for a play or a farce, as a caution to young people not to play, or warn them not to play with strangers; but it would be grossly ludicrous, if it was to be adopted in a system of politics, which was to determine the interests, if not the fate, of a great kingdom. Who ever yet heard of borrowing or lending a diadem? The idea is absurd; the plan is idle and imprac ticable. The conduct of this country, respecting Holland, has often been introduced into debate on this subject, particularly by the noble duke; and inferences have been drawn from it, to prove the propriety of forbearing to resent the insult offered to us by France. I do not mean the last period of Dutch history alluded to; I mean the conduct of queen Elizabeth, relative to the frequent apologies, and the seeming good understanding which subsisted between England and Spain, while Elizabeth was publicly supporting the Dutch in their revolt. In answer to this, I shall just remind his grace, that though war was not actually declared, the assistance given to the revolted subjects was equal on both sides; for while England was fomenting disturbances in the Netherlands, Spain was doing the same in Ireland, and actually invaded that kingdom with a very considerable naval and military force. The facts which introduce the present motion have, in my opinion, been sufficiently proved, and contain matter not of a dangerous nature, unless your lordships should be persuaded to believe the most improbable of all absurdities, that the information which came out in the course of the enquiry, was not known to France. The same objection would have lain against a great part of what fell from me this day; but it is to the last degree farcical. The French know the ground, posts and passages between London and the sea coasts, I will not say better, but at least as well as the most experienced of our own generals. The French are equally well informed as to the state of our army and navy. Indeed, I believe I need not hesitate to say, much better than we are. But now I am up, I cannot help taking notice of a matter which astonished me, and which came out in proof. I confess I looked with amazement at the confidence and insolence of the first lord of the Admiralty. When a war was threatened with France, and a noble duke (of Bolton) reminded his lord his lordship said, "To be sure the fleet was not as well manned as he could wish. He could not help it; he had done every thing in his power; but it was impossible to remedy the evil, as America retained in their service above 20,000 of those seamen, which in former wars we used to have to man our navy." Good God! is it possible to bear such evasions? Shall it be in the power of men in high offices to allure the nation into measures of the most perilous nature; to encourage it from time to time, to proceed upon previous engagements; and when the instant comes that the nation is just at the eve of being plunged into a war, the event of which may determine its existence; shall the same men be so daring, to endeavour to shift the responsibility off their own shoulders, and tell you that they acted ministerially, under the wing of the public counsels, and are not answerable for conse quences? It is not the business of this House to call such men to account. That is the duty of the other House. But what is the other House? Can public justice ever be procured through so foul and corrupt a channel? Is it possible to obtain justice, while that House is under the immediate controul, and at the devotion of the minister? Can impeachments be expected to come from pensioners, contractors, and the whole tribe of needy dependants? Let us but recollect what passed here the other day, when on an inquiry into the shameful jobs respecting the contract for transports, the ministers sent the very contractors, clerks and dependants to insult this House with made-up tales to cover their own corruptions and iniquities. Before this country or its constitution is recovered, that corrupt House must be new modelled. It is at present the source of all corruptions and misfortunes; and if all other means should fail, the people will probably rise, and drag their corrupt and venal representatives from their seats. I shall never submit to the doctrines I have heard this day from the woolsack, that the other House are the only representatives and guardians of the people's rights. I boldly maintain the contrary. I say this House are equally the representatives of the people. They hold the ba lance; and if they should perceive two of the branches of the legislature unite in oppressing and enslaving the people, it is their duty to interpose to prevent it. The noble and learned lord on the woolsack, in the debate which opened the business of this day, asserted, that your lordships were incompetent to make any alteration in a Money Bill, or a Bill of Supply. I should be glad to see the matter fairly and fully discussed, and the subject brought forward and argued upon precedent, as well as all its collateral relations. I should be pleased to see the question fairly committed, were it for no other reason but to hear the sleek, smooth contractors from the other House of Parliament, come to that bar and declare, that they, and they only, could frame a Money Bill; and they, and they only, could dispose of the property of the peers of Great Britain. Perhaps some arguments more plausible than those I heard this day come from the woolsack, to shew that the Commons have an uncontroulable, unqualified right to bind your lordships' property, may be urged by them. At present, however, I beg leave to differ from the sentiments delivered by the noble and learned lord; for until the claim, after a solemn discussion of this House, is openly and directly relinquished, I shall continue to be of opinion, that your lordships have a right to alter, amend, or reject a Money Bill; and to prevent an improper or oppressive tax being laid on the people and yourselves and I trust, that if such a doctrine should come to be ever pressed or tenaciously maintained by the other House, that this inherent right of controul will never be abandoned by your lordships. I so far agree with the noble viscount (Weymouth) that the Address consists of two parts, to withdraw the troops, and for the removal of ministers. If the first is meant to lead to the independence of America, I shall certainly be against it. I repeat what I before urged so strongly, that the dependence of America should never be given up. As to men, I shall ever prefer measures to men. I agree with the noble earl (of Chatham) in his opinion. I wish for no man's place or employment; yet I can never accede to the argument of the noble viscount, that to dismiss the present ministry, would be punishing or censuring them without proof. Is not our present situation, a full proof of the wickedness and imbecility of administration? Have not they done every thing to amuse parliament, to deceive, to mislead them; and do they not yet endeavour to cling to their places? Have not they planned a commission, armed with certain powers, to treat on certain terms? Do not they know beforehand that this commission must miscarry? Is not America previously told to insist on independence? Are not ministry and their friends silent; and preparing to surrender the sovereignty and glory of this country? Where are the high tokens of approbation gone, which I heard echoed from every courtly corner of this House, the last day I took the liberty to deliver my thoughts on the present subject? A solemn stillness pervades these benches, which on the last day resounded with marks of the highest approbation. There are many other reasons, my lords, which serve to convince me, that declaring America independent would be rash and impolitic. The thirteen united states form at present a republic in the strictest sense of the word. It is a fact, confirmed by long experience, that republican states are always averse to war. If they should, as I fear they will, from their present temper and former provocations, reject the offers we are about to propose to them, they will, from the very nature of their government, insensibly, by degrees, bend towards peace. In that view, my advice would be, to let them alone, and they will in time, even from motives of convenience and interest, return to an alliance with this country. They will naturally cultivate commerce and the arts of peace; they will be desirous to bind and heal those wounds which are bleeding from the ravages of war; and they will discover, as soon as the heats and resentments which it has occasioned have subsided, the danger as well as impolicy of their treaty with France, which, if obstinately adhered to, might prove their own destruction, no less than that of the mother country. My lords, whatever the strength and resources of this country may be, they can never be happily or effectually employed, without a thorough reformation in the executive government and the people at large. A reform of manners, both public and private; of the other House in parti cular, who at present, I do not hesitate to pronounce, the servile followers of the minister; ready to obey every mandate he thinks proper to issue; totally immersed in the deepest and dirtiest ways of corruption; and lost to every sense of their own duty and constitutional importance in the state. Though I have strong expec tations that America is not finally lost, but rather believe it will once more return to its connection with this country, I have no hopes from the commission now going | crooked purposes must be abandoned beout, nor the acts on which it is founded. fore we can expect to succeed in any In my opinion, the commissioners will re- measure pacific or hostile. Every thing turn to Europe as they will leave it, re in- must miscarry so long as this plan is adfecta, and that the whole scheme will turn hered to. This government will never get out as it was really designed, nothing but clear of the various difficulties which press a mere pitiful plan of the present ministry, on every side, unless the system of clerks to amuse the nation, and prolong for a few be annihilated; till the court scribblers months their ministerial existence-or by are silenced or dismissed from the highest gaining time, attempt either to divide the to the lowest; from the querist, employed colonies, in hopes to carry into execution to write down and vilify general Howe, their original design of enslaving them, down to the lowest mercenary scribbler of or if that should miscarry, endeavour to the day; till the lawyers and commissioncontinue their own power, by at length ers are sent to their professions, offices, making a formal surrender of America, on and desks, and, till every low, petty, account of its recovery, either by force or under-hand part of the present paltry treaty, being no longer practicable. It is court system is entirely abolished. not yet, my lords, too late. The first step I would advise, is to do America ample justice; to convince the people of that country that we were sincere, that we were in earnest; that we wished to come to an undisguised reconciliation, framed on the most comprehensive bottom, and built on the most solid and permanent foundation. To secure their liberties beyond the power of former or recent claims. Such a plan, my lords, ought to be prevalent, and extend its influence through every dependency of the British empire, to the East and West Indies, Ireland, &c. which would render London what it ought to be, the metropolis of Ireland, Asia, and America. Undoubtedly, my lords, in respect of America, such a scheme would for a time meet with a strong opposition. There are doubtless several in that country who have taken a part in the contest, and who from ambitious views of wealth, honour, and aggrandizement, would oppose it; and would set their preachers and orators to work, to persuade the people of the advantages of being independent; but the bulk of the people, if we acted candidly, judiciously, and direct, I am persuaded, would be easily brought to a reconciliation, a matter I fear, for many strong reasons, which can never be effected by the present ministry; the system by which they are upheld, and the terms on which they hold their appointments, being totally incompatible with the frame and spirit of this government. These dangerous combinations of men, linked together for counteracting the designs of the constitution; for vesting an unnatural power in the hands of the crown, in order to employ it to their own personal purposes, and thereby setting up a distinct interest from that of the people. All these dark and Besides the impolicy of declaring America independent, my lords, I perfectly agree with the noble earl, who, in a few words yesterday, though pressed_down with infirmity, spoke with so much dignity and wisdom, there would be a gross injustice in such a declaration, not only with respect to the heir apparent to the crown, the duke of Osnaburgh, and the several descendants of the princess Sophia and her heirs, being Protestants, but to several families, the natives of this country, who once possessed great landed properties in the colonies. I took the liberty to point out a few of those soon after I rose; but if I were to enter into particulars, and were to have full information upon the subject; the consequences of a separation, and the confiscations which it would be productive of, I am confident, would appear to your lordships most deplorable. Though I desire no man's place nor employment, yet if ministers were to demand my advice, I would readily go to the privy council and give them my sentiments fully. I would not however go alone, they might possibly consider me as a spy, and my visit might prove equally disagreeable to myself, and to those to whom it was made. In fine, my lords, nothing will succeed under the direction of the present administration. They are despised or execrated without doors; they have lost the public confidence: the system of government must be changed, and established upon a stronger basis. I repeat again, the law. yers and commis, the present conductors of public business, must be sent back to their proper vocations, or their original obscurity. America must obtain justice and security, and whatever difficulties may arise to obstruct it, I have no doubt but she may again be happily united to Great Britain. saw nothing on that occasion sufficient to encourage them to a repetition of the same species of warfare. The Duke of Richmond replied to the noble lord's speech. He said, men it was certain were in that House and out of it, in great abundance; and money, as the noble lord has said, abounded in private coffers. But when a war was determined upon, it became necessary not to trust to your eye, in point of numbers, nor estimate the populousness of those kingdoms by the people you saw in that House, in London streets, or on the road to Bath. It was generally believed that France contained twenty four millions, Spain six or seven, and America three. What had we to oppose to that number in Great Britain and Ireland? Little more, he believed, than eight millions. He allowed, that if America was with us, notwithstanding the disparity of numbers, we might be equal to the whole House of Bourbon; but America not only detached from us, but actually put in the scale against us, he thought, to hazard so unequal a contest, would be madness in the extreme. His grace assured their lordships, that no one more sincerely wished that America might return to her former connection with this country than he did; but it was the impracticability in one event, the danger in the other, and the injustice of compelling her by force of arms, that ail equally operated upon his mind, and induced him to be of opinion, that the only way to get clear of all those difficulties, would be at once to declare her independent. He said, suppose Great Britain had nothing to interrupt her, and that she should prevail in the contest, would such a connection be either a desirable or a profitable one? Most certainly not. If conquest on our part was to be the consequence of the contest, the Americans must be slaves; and even though they were slaves, the expence, trouble, and hazard of keeping them in such a state of servile subjection, would cost this nation more money than would be sufficient to balance any advantage we could possibly draw from such a dominion. His grace observed, that the noble lord talked much of the vulnerable parts of France and Spain. If there were no other motives, nor stronger, for entering into a war, than the advantages to be derived from sudden attacks and debarkations on their coasts, those would weigh very little with him. He remembered, that in the course of the late war, he served in company with the noble lord on one or more of those expeditions; and he imagined they He observed, the noble lord avowed his preference of measures to men. So did he, when measures stood in opposition to men. It is true, the noble lord censured, in a very able manner, the conduct of the present ministry; but what did that censure amount to, when his lordship's general sentiments went to an indiscriminate approbation of those of the noble earl who spoke the preceding day? The noble earl said, he desired no man's employment; he wished for no man's place. All he found fault with was 'unretracted error.' His grace appealed to the noble lord, whether the phrase, unretracted error, did not fairly import, that the noble earl had no objection to unite or support the present ministers, on condition that they retracted their errors? If measures, not men, meant this, he fully understood what was in tended. His grace observed, much had been said and relied upon in argument, by the noble lord, on our abilities, on what we were able to do against the common enemy; yet a great part of the noble lord's own argument went to prove the necessity of a superior force. His lordship called for a much superior force to any thing we could procure for several months, even for the defence of the southern part of the island. He asked a noble duke on the other side of the House, whether, in case of an attack in Scotland, he had either men or money to repel such an attack? The silence of the noble duke implied a negative. The same question might be extended to Ireland, which, by all accounts, was in a most defenceless condition. The noble lord had observed, very pointedly, that although the militia were called out and ordered to be embodied, yet such was the state of public credit, that the minister was either afraid, or could not procure money to pay them. What, then, said his grace, does the argument of the noble lord and noble earl amount to? The latter says, he wages no war with persons, but with unretracted error: and the noble lord says, that measures, not men, are what he looks to. Surely, the noble lord will not say, though war was declared to-morrow, that the present ministers could have a more effectual support than they have; consequently his lordship will confess, that even good and necessary measures cannot prove successful in the hands of the pre sent ministers. His grace proved, that either his lordship must declare in favour of American independence, and peace with France, or give up men, as connected with measures: for in many instances, particularly in the present, measures cannot be separated from men; the former, however expedient, wise, or necessary, must fail, while the execution of them is intrusted in such hands as now hold the reins of government. He contended, that he repeated no more than the noble lord's own arguments; for they all went to prove, in the fullest manner, what had been now as serted. France had not interfered, I declare, for one, that I do not entertain a wish that America was forced into submission, and I will give my reason for making this declaration. The conduct of this country for some years past, has obviously been such as tended to reduce America to servility, to slavery; every measure of administration was calculated to wound the freedom of the colonies; and it requires but little argument to prove, that as soon as America is enslaved, Great Britain's loss of liberty will be at hand. Exclusive of this very galling circumstance, what an immense expence, what a heavy burden would it be to this country, to keep so extensive a continent in a state of slavery? None but the weakest of politicians, none but the worst of men, would ever have dreamt of aiming at a purpose so mani. festly unjust, injurious, and destructive! The noble earl had mentioned prince Ferdinand as a great general, and intimated a wish that he was at present called' on to take the command of that army which was to defend the kingdom. The His grace, after describing very fully our internal state, and the powers we had to contend with, supposing we should drive France into the arms of America, declared, that no man in his senses would think of going to war under such circumstances; or expect to impress the minds of his hearers with conviction, that this country, after having proved herself incapable to prevail over America singlehanded, could stand any chance of victory in a contest with France, Spain, and Ame-noble earl had mentioned the prince as rica, united. He declared, he wished as the one man whose abilities and wisdom sincerely as any one of their lordships, or united had been the cause of an army of the noble lord who spoke last, for a speedy 40,000 men beating an army of 100,000. accommodation between Great Britain He could not help differing from the noble and America, without making so great a earl in both points. He believed few vicsacrifice as the dependency of the latter; tories were owing either to the single but fatal experience had put it past a valour or the single experience of one doubt, in his mind, that things were gone man. If the instruments under him were too far for such a desirable event to take not equal to the task achieved, the atplace. He should have been much better tempt would necessarily prove fruitless. pleased, if the noble lord, instead of launch- A smaller army might beat a larger; but, ing forth into a description of ideal men then, not only the men must be well disand money, had shewn how America was ciplined, and full of spirit, but the officers to be regained; how the thirteen states second in command, and those inferior, now, even by the noble lord, acknow-down to the very subalterns, must be caledged to be independent, were to be brought back to allegiance and dependency on this country. He saw no prospect of it; and therefore, being anxious to render America at least a friend to Great Britain, had thrown out his ideas as to the best means of doing it. He begged the noble earl, as well as their lordships, to consider, that America, if not the friend of Great Britain, must necessarily become the friend of France, and of consequence, could not stand neuter with regard to us. Suppose, added his grace, that matters were not in the perilous state that they really are; suppose, for the sake of argument, that the last campaign had been still more successful than it was, that America was likely to submit, and that pable of giving effect to the plan of their leaders, and by a proper co-operation invigorate and support the efforts of the whole army. He had his eye on a noble earl who served under prince Ferdinand, and to whom he verily believed a great part of the prince's success last war ought justly to be ascribed. That noble earl (Waldegrave) was, in his opinion, as ca pable of taking the command of our army, and conducting it successfully, in case of invasion, as any German prince in Christendom; and he never could consent to intreat the service of foreigners in our army, while so many able English officers were unemployed. The Earl of Shelburne said, as soon as the French ambassador delivered the of |