mine, whether they would wait for the neceffary evidence or proceed without it; it was either way a matter of indifference to him, but undoubtedly their lordships would not act regularly to go on without having a fworn copy of the fentence of the Ecclefiaftical Court before them. With regard to the mode of its being produced, the learned lord on the other fide of the Houfe had very properly stated, that it lay with the parties applying for the bill, and depended on no order of the Houfe. The agent to the partics had a right to have a copy from the Register of the Ecclefiaftical Court, paying for that copy; it was his duty to examine it carefully, and compare it with the original, and having fo done and fworn to it, he by that means was enabled to authenticate it to the Houfe. As he was upon his legs, his lordfhip faid, he would mention a matter relative to the bill in queftion; he held in his hand a letter, which had been put into his hands, unfealed, fince he came into that Houfe; the letter was figned Robert Johnson, and as it concerned their lordfhips full as much as it did him, he would read it to the Houfe. His lordship read the letter accordingly the purport of it was, that the writer fince his appearance at their lordship's bar, had recollected other parts of the converfation between Mr Andrew Bayntun and Lady Maria, fubfequent to the difcovery of the latter's criminality with Mr. Cooper, which not only would throw a farther light on the collufive conduct of the parties to be principally affected by the bill, but was exceedingly material for him to ftate in order to clear himfelf from the imputation of the awful crime of perjury, which he was confcious the teftimony of Sir Edward Bayntun and his two fons muft tend in the confideration of their lordships to throw upon him. Mr. Johnfon in his letter preffed to be allowed an opportunity of defending himtelf from fo infamous an imputation, and in terms of great earnestness, declared he had it in his power completely to exculpate hinfelf, as well as to convince their lordships. that he had not faid any thing at their bar, but what was ftrictly founded in truth. Lord Thurlow faid, it was rather an extraordinary mode of application, as Mr. Johnfon, inftead of writing to him, might have tendered himfelf at their bar, and there stated the purport of his letter. His lordship delivered the letter in at the table. It was then moved, that Mr. Robert Johnson, the Rev. Mr. John Bayntun, and the Rev. Mr. Henry Bayntun, do attend this Houfe on Tuesday next, which upon the question put, was agreed to by the House. After fome further confideration, it was agreed to adjourn the Committee to Tucíday the 15th. HOUSE of COMMON S- A new writ for Bishop's Caftle, in the room of Mr. Strachey, appointed storekeeper to the Ordnance. A new writ for Stranrawer, &c. in room of William Adam, appointed Treafurer and Pay-mafter of the ordnance. AMERICAN TRADE BILL. Mr. Secretary Fox moved to have the order of the day for farther confidering the report on the American trade bill read; it being read accordingly, Mr. Fox faid, it was his intention to move, that the farther confideration of the bill be adjourned for three or four weeks, thinking that by far the greater part of the regulations that had been proposed to stand as claufes of it, had much better be left to negociation, and to be made articles of the treaty of commerce then actually negociating between this country and America, than inferted in an act of Parliament, which muft neceffarily, in fome fort, be matter of guefs work only. Mr. Fox faid, the negociation in queftion would, in all probability, be finally fettled in a few weeks; in that cafe, all the difficulties that food in the way of a free intercourfe of trade between the two countries, would be removed, and in order to facilitate fo defirable an object, he meant to move to bring in a bill for the repeal of the Prohibitory Laws, which bill he fhould confine to that purpofe only, and as there could be no objection to it, he flattered himself, it might be paffed in as few days as the forms of Parliament would allow. He intended alfo to move, for leave to bring in another bill, for the purpose of removing all the difficulties in the way of our trade with the Americans, occafioned by fuch claufes of the acts now in force, as rendered bonds, certificates, cockets, and other papers of that nature, neceffary, to be produced by fhips coming here from America; and thus having cleared away the great impediments, and thereby thereby convinced the Americans of our fincere defire to act with them commercially on the moft friendly footing, he had no doubt but the negociation would tpeedily come to an iffue, and the trade fall naturally into its old courfe. Mr. Fox faid, he was aware, that opinions were entertained, that the prohibitory laws were already virtually repealed by an act of the laft feffion; or if that were not the cafe, that his Majefty and his Council had the power of fufpending them; both thefe opinions might have fome foundation, but as different fentiments prevailed refpecting them, and as it would have a better grace, and be a more handsome mode of proceeding, he fhould propofe to pafs a fpecial act for the purpose, which would at once put the matter beyond all poffibility of further queftion. Mr. W. Pitt faid, the neceffity of opening an intercourfe with America, and that as early as poffible, in order to prevent other countries from getting the ftart of us, and carrying their goods to the American markets fooner than we could, was a matter that must prefs itself on the conviction of every gentleman. He heartly wifhed the negociation in queftion might answer the object as fully as the honourable gentleman had defcribed, but he owned, when he confidered the very great difficulties (many of which he was free to lay appeared to him to have been very unneceffarily urged) that had arifen in the way of the bill, he had the honour of having introduced; and when he recollected the vast variety of confiderations neceffary to be adverted to in a permanent commercial treaty, he owned he was not equally fanguine with the honourable gentleman, nor could he think it poffible that a treaty fo comprehenfive in its nature, fo multifarious in its objects, and altogether fo ferioufly important, could be brought to a conclufion in fo fhort a fpace of time as a few weeks. It was from an idea of the great difficulty, and the confequent and unavoidable delay, the bringing fuch a treaty to an iffue muft be attended with, that he had been induced to think it more preferable to pafs a temporary act, adapted to the neceffity of the moment, than to wait for the conclufion of a permanent treaty. If, however, the honourable gentleman thought himself warranted to be fanguine in his expectation, (though from what little he knew upon the fubject, he could not guess what it was that had authorized fuch fort of confidence) and the matter could be adVOL. V. July 1783. jufted by treaty in fo fhort a time as the honourable gentleman had given the Houfe to expect, he thould be extremely pleafed for one, and be ready to give his Majefty's Minifters his thare of approba tion and applause. Mr. Secretary Fox rofe again, and defired to be understood; he faid, he was not fanguine in his expectations from any certain knowledge, that he was in poffeffion of, that the treaty of commerce with America would be concluded in a few weeks, but from his hopes, that when the Prohibitory Acts were repealed, and every difficulty removed voluntarily on our part, America would have nothing to contend for, but would readily agree to put an end to the treaty now in negociation. With regard to the bill in quetion, the honourable gentleman would, he doubted not, allow, that if it went on, it would be fome time before it could pafs, [Mr. Pitt nodded affent.] In that time, it would be afcertained, whether the matter could be concluded by treaty or not; and if it should appear that it could not, then the prefent bill or fomething like it, might be taken up and completed; for this reafon it was, that he had moved to adjourn the bill for three or four weeks, meaning thereby a real poftponement, and not to give up the bill altogether. Mr. Arden faid, that having taken a part in fupporting the bill, it was neceffary for him to fay a few words. The right honourable Secretary talked of bringing in two bills, the one for repealing the Prohibitory Laws, the other for repealing certain claufes of certain ftatutes refpecting bonds, certificates, &c. &c. Was the right honourable Secretary a ware, that both thofe points were within the view of the prefent bill? One of them (the repealing the Prohibitory Laws) was the immediate aim of the very first claufe, the other he believed of the 7th [Mr. Fox faid he knew it.] This being the cafe, Mr. Arden afked, why not go on with the prefent bill, retaining only the two claufes in question? He alfo urged the neceffity of the Legiflature's pronouncing an opinion in what light hips coming to British ports from America were to be confidered. He wished it might not be left for the lawyers and cuftom-houfe officers to conteft hereafter. He had, he faid, formed his own opinion, but he should be forry to declare it; there was a great delicacy in the cafe, and therefore he wifhed the Legiflature to put the matter beyond all question, and G to to fay in an Act of Parliament how American fhips were to be treated, whether as foreign fhips, as British thips, or as American fhips were treated before their independency. Mr. Arden reasoned upon thefe points for fome time, and ftrenuoufly urged the neceflity of having the doubt and difficulty, that muit otherwife be felt by the Custom-houfe officer removed. "Mr. Secretary Fox replied, and stated in a very forcible manner two difficulties that ftruck him as infurmountable reafons for neither declaring by Act of Parliament, that the American fhips fhould be treated as the hips of foreign nations, nor as they had been treated heretofore. If it were declared by ftatute, that we confidered the hips of America as the fhips of foreign nations, then every indulgence we granted them by the other bill, which he had mentioned, would be regarded with jealoufy by other foreign nations, and the Ruffians, and every o ther power with whom we had commercial treaties, would be brought down upon us. On the other hand, he faw an objection to fuffering it to be declared by ftatute, that they fhould be treated as heretofore, and it was this: he was extremely unwilling to appear to grant them more by the act, than upon the farther agitating the negociation it might appear expedient to allow them. In other words, he wifhed not to give occafion hereafter to recede from our degree of indulgence; which muft at all times appear ungracious, and be difficult to manage. For thefe reafons, Mr. Fox faid, though he wished not to be confidered as an enemy to the Independence of America, nor as in any thape grudging or regretting that circumftance, yet he could not confent to treat them as British fubjects, and indeed without, on the one hand, giving offence to other foreign nations, or creating difficultics for ourfelves hereafter, on the other, he faw no other mode of confidering them at all practicable; and fo confidering them, he thought it better to let the doubts, ftarted by the learned gentleman near him, remain untouched upon for the prefent, than attempted to be meddled with. Mr. Evre propofed the paffing an immediate law to open the trade with America on liberal terms, but with an exception as to the permitting their fhips to bring over rum, fugars, and other articles, the produce of the Weft India 1flands. Mr. Eyre faid, he had good rea fon to believe America was inclined immediately, on our paffing fuch a law, to pafs a fimilar one, making the advantages reciprocal to both countries. Mr. Eyre read the heads of a bill he had drawn for the purpofe, which appeared to be clear, intelligible, and well adapted to the occafion. Mr. D. Hartley faid a few words in fupport of Mr. Fox's argument, and in order to fhew, why it would be more advifeable to pafs a new bill, than to adopt that already before the House, with a very long and copious title, by no means confined to the fingle object of repealing the Prohibitory Laws. Mr. Secretary Fox made his motion ia the form cuftomary on fuch occafions. The bill was put off for one month. been prevented by illnefs from appearing in the House fince the last feffion of Parliament, when he was re-elected for the borough of Calne, in Wiltshire, after having accepted the office of paymatter general: he had a piece of green filk over his eyes, and was led to and from his feat by a friend, who is a member of the Houfe. A new writ for Tavistock in room of Colonel Fitzpatrick appointed Secretary at War. Mr. Elwes, from thie Select Committee on the Pontefract election reported to the House, "That Nathaniel Smyth, Efq; is not duly elected. "That John Smith, Efq; the petitioner, ought to have been duly returned. "That John Smith, Efq; is duly e lected." It was afterwards moved that the determinations be entered on the Journals. A motion was then made that the Deputy Clerk of the Crown do attend this Houle on Monday next, and amend the return. INDIA. Commodore Johnstone defired to know, whether an immediate account of the peace had been tranfmitted to India. He meant, whether an account had been fent over land, or by fome fwift failing veffel. If it had only been fent out by a common Indiaman, it might as well have been fent in a dung cart. The commodore faid, he wished for a precife anfwer, becaufe, on confidering the bad news from India, the accounts of which had just arrived, with the fituation of our affairs in that part of the globe, when the advice came away, the falvation of our poffeffions there depended in his mind on an early communication of the news of the peace. Mr. Secretary Fox faid, as long as he had the honour to be a Minister, he never would refort to the practice of refusing to anfwer any queftions of real importance that were put to him in that House, by referring to other departments, but that he held himself bound to be able to give information upon every great public topic from his own office. On the prefent occafion, he was fair to fay, that from the Thort time he had been in his minifterial fituation, he was not prepared to anfwer the honourable gentleman's question. He did not know in what manner the news of the peace had been fent over to India, but he would enable himself to give the honourable gentleman the fatisfaction he defired on Monday next. AMERICAN MANIFEST BILL. When Mr. Secretary Fox moved, "That leave be given to bring in a "bill for preventing any manifeft, cer"tificate, or other documents being re"quired from any fhips belonging to the "United States of America, arriving "from thence at any port in this king"dom; or upon entering or clearing out "from any port of this kingdom, for "any port within the faid United States." A thort debate arofe upon it. Sir George Yonge objected to the motion as incomplete, for want of the words "Britifh fhips" being infeited in it. Mr. Secretary Fox faid, if upon difcuffing the bill, the matter started by the honourable gentleman fhould appear neceffary to be inferted, it might then be done. Mr. Jenkinfon faid, the queftion, between him and the right honourable Sccretary was not, whether the most advifcable way to open an intercourfe with America, was by removing all impediments to that intercourse, that ftood upon the Statute books? But whether the bill now moved, would fully anfwer that pur pofe. Taking away legal impediments to the intercoufe, Mr. Jenkinfon faid, he agreed to be the beft, and indeed the only poffible way of rettoring the trade with America, but he had his doubts, whether the prefent bill would produce that effect, and if it fhould be found that it did not, he thought it would be extremely wrong to go on with a bill of that kind then, and after the holidays be obliged to bring in another to make up for its deficiencies. Mr. Jenkinton reafoned on this for fome time, and faid, he meant to fpeak to the queftion fairly, for he was ready to admit, that the principle adopted by the right honourable Secretary was a right one. There was, however, a matter of danger in the application of it, which he would mention then; and which must be provided againft in the bill; and that was, the danger of leaving fuch an opening as thould afford any veffels affuming the name of American fhips to turn fimugglers, and convey goods uncustomed into every port in the kingdom. Mr. Eden faid, that though the Houfe had undergone many long difcuffions of the prefent queftion, in the courfe of the laft fix weeks, there never had exifted, nor did there now appear to exift, any difference of opinion, as to the object in view; that object was, to gain by liberal, but prudent measures, as great a share of F2 the the American commerce, as could be gained, without imminent rifque or actual difadvantage, to the naval ftrength of Great Britain. In pursuing that object, the House seemed alfo to be agreed, as to the propriety of leaving that negociation for the prefent, unconfined by laws, to the fair exertions of the King's Minifters: and he understood it now to be an admitted principle of policy, rather to found the regulating acts upon the treaty to be concluded, than to anticipate all grounds of treaty by a Parliamentary interference, which might indeed bind our own commerce, but could not open or infure any mutuality. Subject to this principle, his right honourable friend had propofed two bills, merely to remove reftraints, which in nobody's opinion ought to fubfift, whatever might be the event of the nego. ciation fuch a measure, so far as it went, was undoubtedly right; but other gentle men had juftly obferved, that a mere repeal of reftraints, would in some refpects do too little, in others too much: it would be found, for example, on referring to the first claufe of the navigation aft, that unless fome farther regulation should be made, the fhips of the United States would remain excluded from our ports, as being American fhips from territories not belonging to his Majefty in other instances, the mere repeal of reftraints would do too much; moft extenfive frauds and abufes might take place in the whole bufinefs of drawbacks and bounties; and again. the whole carrying trade to the Weft Indies, would be opened to the United States; he could, if it were neceffary, state many other circumftances, to fhew the neceffity of fupplying thefe refulting defects of the measure, by a difcretionary power to be lodged in the King and Council, or in the Commiffioners of his Majefty's Treafury; but as that neceffity feemed at length to be allowed by all fides of the Houfe, he would merely move an amendment to the title of the propofed bill, to authorife his Majefty for a time to be limited, to make fuch farther regulations, as may be proper and expedient. The Speaker read the amendment. "And to give his Majesty, for a time "to be limitted, certain powers for the "better carrying the faid purpofes into "execution." Mr. Arden concurred, and proposed to fhorten the title of the bill, and confine it merely to lodging a difcretionary power of regulating for a limited time, with the King in Council. Mr. Fox defired, that the title might be as amended by Mr. Eden, and it paifed accordingly. Adjourned to Morday the 14th. HOUSE of LORD S. SECOND READING IRISH JURISDIC- Earl of Abingdon made a long fpeech, but did not mean to impede the bill. The Duke of Richmond rofe, and complimented Lord Abingdon on what he had just delivered. The noble lord had faid, he was an enemy to the idea of the Parliament of England affuming the pow er to exercife internal legiflation over Ireland, and that fuch an exercife of power was not more offenfive to the conftitution of England, than fubverfive to the rights of Ireland. He would go farther: he was ready to affert and maintain, that the Parliament of England had no right to exercise external legiflation over Ireland; and when he went thus far, he felt himfelf juftified in the extent of his affertion, by a conviction that no country had a right to legiflate for another, either internally or externally, unlefs that other country chofe to fubmit to fuch legiflation. His grace then afked, whether the Minifters of this day took up the bill then before their lordships as a part of a fyftem of their own, to which they had adapted it? Or whether they confidered it merely as a measure of a former adminiftration, and meant it to be the only meafure to be taken refpecting Ireland? The Duke of Portland faid, he concurred in the prefent bill because he thought it adapted to the occafion, and because he had learnt from refpectable men on both fides of the water, that the paffing of fuch a bill would be agrecable to Ireland. In regard to any future measures, there was no occafion for going into a discusfion of them at that time. The Duke of Richmond rofe and expreffed great doubts refpecting Lord North's intentions. The only way to folve thefe doubts was, that one of that noble lord's friend's fhould ftand up and affure the Houfe, that a fyftem of measures in regard to Ireland, was formed, agreeable to the fpirit of the ad refolution of the |