If the policemen could only get persons to observe that rule, accidents would be much less likely to occur. With regard to this new street, he repeated that, so far as Mr. Pattinson's arrangements were concerned, he knew from that gentleman that no site shown on that plan of Mr. Lamb will suit

Mr. OLIVER: Nor on the other.

Mr. BARKAS begged pardon. He was inclined to think-indeed he was positively assured that Mr. Pattinson would be satisfied with the site on the Sheriff's plan.

The MAYOR: A reservation is subject to any alteration that might be made.

Mr. J. ANGUS said so many interests were involved that it would be desirable to send the question back to the Finance Committee.

Mr. HARLE said this point had been discussed over and over again. At the last meeting it was solemnly decided, but that day they were told that some new element had arisen of a legal character affecting private interests. According to Mr. Hodge-and in this the Town Clerk agreed with him-it might be dangerous in adopting either the plan of Mr. Cail or Mr. Lamb, to deal with private interests. It was, therefore, important to take care that the plan adopted by the Council was in accordance with the contracts made by those individuals. He had no objections, having a strong leaning in favour of Mr. Lamb's plan, to move the following resolution, if his friend, Mr. Hodge, would adopt it:-"That it be referred to the Finance Committee to consider how far the line of street adopted by the Council is in accordance with the agreement entered into with Mr. Angus and other parties."

Mr. TONE: That won't do.

Mr. HARLE: That's the test, you see.

The SHERIFF hoped the Council would bear with him for a few minutes, while he made some explanations. When this subject was discussed at a special meeting, he then, as now, stated that it was no party question with him at all. He had nothing to do with any party. He had no opposition to Mr. Lamb or anybody else.

Mr. GREGSON: And nothing to gain.

The SHERIFF said he had nothing to gain, but he felt then and now-and still more strongly after the discussion-that it might be a very serious thing to allow this thing to be done, if he could render any assistance to the Corporation of which he was a member, and which had extended so great indulgence to him. He felt that it was much better to make any alteration now than afterwards, when too late, particularly when the lines of improvement were taken into account. Mr. Forster, than whom a more conscientious and painstaking councillor there was not, said he (Mr. Cail) had spent much of his time in making railways, and that it was therefore quite clear that he abhorred a curve. If Mr. Forster had understood plans-he did not

say that disrespectfully-he would have seen that in the line he had laid down there was an easy curve, and a curve mostly all the way. Consequently, that observation was entirely uncalled for. The next speaker was Mr. Sanderson, and the same remarks might apply to him. He quoted a very worthy friend of his, Mr. J. Robinson, as being a proper person to advise the laying down of a street. The next gentleman was a professional man, Mr. Oliver. He told them he had been to Paris, and that the plans adopted by Mr. Lamb were eminently satisfactory, because the church was made to stand in the centre of the street, like Arc of Triumph in the Champs Elysees. As they all knew, the Arc of Triumph was the largest and finest building in the world, and it stood in an immensely open space, and what was more there was an immense roadway through it of at least eighty feet. He did not see that there was the slightest similarity between the Arc of Triumph and St. John's Church, because the church stood there (pointing to its position on the plan), and they could not get quit of it if they wanted. The best way in his opinion was to wind round it. After briefly replying next to Mr. Harle, who, he said, of course always spoke very fluently, the Sheriff stated that in laying down this street, he had arranged that a passenger coming on the north side from Grainger Street would never have occasion to leave that side on his way to the railway station. The same thing would occur on the other side, and the only piece that was wanting was a very small piece off the churchyard, which could be dispensed with if it could not be got. If that small piece could be got, it would then make the footpath along the church straight. It was exactly the contrary in the other plan, for any person coming down by the Savings Bank would naturally cross over at that point. According to his plan, the sites between Westgate and Neville Streets would be of equal depths; whereas in Mr. Lamb's plan they would be like two wedges. With regard to the plans discussed that day, the plan to which Mr. Tone had referred was the same as his own. The next point was the statement made that the plan that he had lithographed as Mr. Lamb's was not correct. He had the tracing he got from Mr. Lamb, and he got Mr. Tone to go with him and compare it, and certainly the corner of that street was more rounded off than Mr. Lamb's, but the lines were identical. He (the Sheriff), had no personal interest. He only wished to do what was best for the town, and he left the matter in the hands of the Council.

Mr. SANDERSON said he also might say that he had no personal interest in this question, but it was a subject in which so far as the town was concerned he had taken great interest, both as to the convenience of the sites, and likewise as to the character of the line. With reference to the former point, he quoted his friend Mr. J. Robinson, who had told him that the lines as given by Mr. Lamb would leave convenient sites on both sides, and such sites as were best adapted for carrying on business, as sucessfully as he himself had done in the very large warehouse attached to that building.

He was also under the impression that Mr. Pattinson was willing to proceed to build under any plan. He certainly was given to understand by Mr. Lamb that that was the case, that he had entered into an agreement on behalf of the Corporation, and that one part of the agreement was that whatever line was adopted by the Corporation, Mr. Pattinson was willing to abide by it

Mr. GREGSON: Provided he got space.

Mr. SANDERSON said he had an opinion that Mr. Pattinson could have no cause to find fault whether they adopted one plan or the other, One reason, however, that he thought pointed strongly in favour of Mr. Lamb's plan was that in all the best streets with which they were acquainted a straight line was preferred to a curve. They had before them a plan which showed a straight line except with reference to the Church. They had before them, on the other hand, a plan in which they had a curve. What the apperance of that curve would be, they could all ascertain. If they chose to go along from Clayton Street East with West Clayton Street, they should see throughout in that street a deviation from a line which he had no doubt, if Mr. Grainger had had an opportunity of obtaining the necessary land, would have been a straight line. Whether that was the cause of the shops not letting for so long a time he was not aware, but it was quite clear that that curve was a very serious detriment, at any rate, to the appearance of the street, and was, he must say, no very great advantage to the traffic of it. As to the curve in the plan before them, he found that that curve appeared much larger on the model than it would be in the finished street. In driving a conveyance, if they could not pull up at something like thirty or forty feet, they would soon be up before the coroner for destruction of life. They must be able to pull up within five or ten yards, or they run a pretty good chance of running somebody down, for which they would have to answer before the coroner or the magistrates. It might be all very well on a railway to see a distance of thirty or forty yards, and Mr. Tone, when he alluded to that subject, must have had in view that memorable accident on the Blyth and Tyne Railway, in which some carriages ran amain and did so much injury. ("Question.") In driving on the road, they must see the object at a shorter distance than thirty or forty yards, which they knew to be necessary in railway practice. Mr. Tone also stated that when they stood at one end of the street they should not be able to see the church, and that it was impossible to say whether it was a dove-cot or a barn. If the church were as black as Mr. Cail had made it there (referring to the model), he should be disposed to say they had the old castle of Warkworth before them. On taking up his compasses he found that by the scale on which that plan was drawn, Mr. Cail had represented the height of the church as eighty feet. It it were eighty feet in height, he admitted it ought not to be in the middle of the street. If Mr. Tone took his compasses he would find that the old church was represented as pretty nearly half the height of St. Nicholas' steeple

itself. The church appeared there as some black object, to frighten them, he supposed, from adopting that particular line of street; and where they met it, they imagined they were running after something which looked much liker a French bastile then a place of ecclesiastical meeting. There was another point in Mr. Lamb's plan, and that was that the curve was upon the south side of the street. Mr. Lamb, in drawing that curve upon that side, had an object in view. Mr. Lamb, as he (Mr. Sanderson) observed on the last occasion, had looked at Rosemary Lane. The time would come, sooner or later, when they would have to pull down their rubbishly old buildings, and convert the lane into a street coming out at the Stephenson Monument. It was very important to keep that in view, which had been done in the plan of Mr. Lamb. On the whole, he thought there had been nothing shown to them to justify them in setting aside a solemn conclusion come to at a special meeting of the Council for that purpose. It was not due either to themselves or to Mr. Lamb, their own competent adviser, to come in this way and upset plans maturely prepared by one of their own officers, for plans brought forward by any member of the Council. Some one else, besides the Sheriff, might come forward with a plan; and the result would be that there would be an end to the matter. He trusted that they would support the officer of the Corporation whom they appointed to that office, by adhering to the plan that they had already adopted. Let them be consistent with themselves; let them be consistent with what he believed to be the true principle of street architecture; and let them be consistent with the respect they ought to pay to their own advisers, If their own officers were wrong, let them remove them, but if not let them give them their support. If their officers were worth nothing, it was time they were sent about their business, and an entirely different mode of procedure adopted. (Hear, hear, and cries of "Divide.")

Mr. HAMOND said they ought to require the production of the plan which Mr. Clark, on behalf of the Savings Bank, informed them had been laid before the Town Improvement Committee, and upon the faith of which they had spent £10,000 on the erection of that building. They must have the plan before them before they were in a position to decide upon the relative merits of Mr. Lamb and Mr. Cail's plans. There was another thing that had escaped the observation of the Council, and that was how far either of these plans was in accordance with the Parliamentary plan on which they got powers to make the street. It seemed to him that both these plans were in direct violation of the Parliamentary plan, and of the deviation which they were authorised under the Act of Parliament to make in respect to the road. That plan ought, therefore, still to be considered. These plans of Mr. Lamb and Mr. Cail ought to be compared with the plan which they presented to Parliament, and then Mr. Bryson's plan, to which Mr. Clark had alluded, ought to be produced. He was told, on good authority, that Mr. Lamb's plan was beyond the line of deviation; and it ill became the Corporation

to infringe the Act of Parliament. The Parliamentary plan laid down a straight line from the Bigg Market to the entrance into Westgate Street. It had, however, been altered; and they remembered the row, to use a vulgar expression, they had with the Lord Bishop of Durham, about the removal of a small corner of St. John's Church wall. They included that in their Act of Parliament, in order to make the street uniform.

The SHERIFF: You don't touch the wall of the church.

Mr. HAMOND said they took so many feet off the outer wall for the street, but be that as it might, they ought to consider, and it was their duty to adopt, the best possible line that could be got for the town, bearing in mind that the street would be the great outlet for the traffic from the Central Station. They had no right to think of Rosemary Lane. They must make the new street as perfect as they could for the present, and leave Rosemary Lane for the future. He cordially seconded Mr. Hodge's amendment, if he would add to it "Parliamentary plan and that plan as mentioned by Mr. Clark, upon which the trustees of the Savings Bank bought their ground." They should refer the whole matter back to the Finance Committee, and have it settled as soon as possible by the Council.

Mr. HODGE had no objection to accept Mr. Hamond's suggestion, and the amendment was ultimately modified as follows:-"That the subject be referred to the Finance Committee to consider the best line for St. John's Lane, having a special regard to any line of street exhibited to Mr. Angus or any other person with whom a contract was entered into for the sale of sites; also, the Parliamentary plan, and any plan assented to by the Town Improvement Committee as exhibited to the trustees of the Savings Bank at the time of the erection of that building."

Mr. GREGSON replied. He was very much surprised to hear the remarks of a gentleman to whom they generally listened with the greatest pleasure. Mr. Sanderson, he had no hesitation in saying, had talked the grossest nonsense that he ever heard in the Council. (Laughter, and "No no.") Well, he thought he should prove it. Mr. Sanderson had told them that in the main thoroughfare of this town in which the traffic would be so great, they were to drive up within thirty yards of any object. He said that was an insult to the members of the Council. They were to be perfect horsemen or coachmen, to pull up within thirty yards! It was so gross that he did not think Mr. Sanderson would have uttered it. He had heard no argument against the straight line of Mr. Cail. He believed it would be found on inquiry-and he had looked at the plans this morning as carefully as possible-that the particular line of the Sheriff's differed extremely little from the original Parliamentary plan; and if Mr. Lamb had kept to that Parliamentary plan. he did not think there would have been any discussion in the matter, Mr. OLIVER: They're both alike.