a

not very decorous mode of proceeding.– man's speech on which he would not at Of that noble lord he (Mr. È.) would say, present touch ; namely, the expediency of that various and important and laborious divesting the lord Chancellor of all political as were the duties which he had to dis- character, and of confining himself to his charge, he knew of no person who had a duties as an equity judge. Whether it was mind and understanding more equal to not desirable that there should be in the grasp the whole range of the duties, and cabinet an officer of great judicial imto master and overcome the difficulties portance ; and if desirable, whether it that attended them. No individual, per- would be advantageous that that officer haps, ever brought to the discharge of those should be of a lower rank than the lord duties more useful faculties.-Acute and Chancellor, were questions on which he penetrating, he is remarkable for the pa- would not then touch. Nor would he say tience and attention with which he listens a word on the subject of separating the to the statements and arguments which are bankruptcy from the Chancery jurisdiction. submitted to him.- Perhaps no one has more the confession of the hon. gentleman with the talent of separating the material and respect to the complication of the business important points, from those which are im- imposed upon the lord Chancellor, and material and extraneous, and of thus arriv- the impossibility that any one man could ing at a prompt and correct judgment found satisfactorily get through it, would at least ed on the real and substantial merits of the serve to acquit his noble and learned friend case.—He (Mr. F.) had little doubt that by whom that high situation had lately his hon. friend, the member for Durham, been held of the charges which had been would see reasons to be satisfied with the brought against him. It now appeared, conduct of that noble and learned lord, even by the admission of the hon. mover in respect to the question in which that himself, that the delays which had taken hon. member felt so much interest that place in the court of Chancery were not the result of the labours in which the lord matters of personal charge against his Chancellor is now engaged with a view to noble and learned friend ; but might be a reform in the proceedings of the court justly accounted for by circumstances of Chancery would be such as to call which were entirely beyond his control. forth the praise and approbation of his hon. He mentioned this in justice to one to friend.

whom justice had hitherto not been done. Mr. Secretary Peel was of opinion, that Mr. G. Bankes denied that the business it was desirable to postpone any discussion of the court of Chancery was increasing, of the question, until the papers moved for at the present moment, in the degree which by the hon. and learned gentleman had had been represented. He protested, too, been produced. So far was the lord against the separation of the bankruptcy Chancellor from having abandoned the busin: ss from the Chancellor's jurisdicprinciple of the bill which he had in- tion. The questions arising in bankruptcy troduced into that House, that it was his were so nice, and of so much importance, intention to issue forty or fifty orders that they required that the attention of the founded on the recommendations of the first judge in the country should be directcommission. In his (Mr. Peel's) opinion, ed to them. it was better to look forward to future Mr. M. A. Taylor, in reply, said that amelioration, than to revive the discussions his statements as to the business of the to which the report of the commission had Court had been taken from the papers

of given rise. He certainly, however, could the judges themselves. His observations not think that the composition of that as to the present lord Chancellor were not commission had been objectionable, be- intended in the slightest degree to impugn cause there were persons belonging to it, that learned lord's professional character; who were unconnected with the court of but the fact was, that he was not an equity Chancery. Had it been otherwise, he was lawyer; and that there had been fewer appersuaded that an objection would have peals in bis time, because people saw no been made to the constitution of the com-advantage in appealing from the Vicemission, and that the usefulness of having chancellor or the Master of the Rolls, who persons upon it who were embarrassed by were highly conversant with equity pracno professional prepossessions would have tice, to a judge. As to the observations of been warmly urged

There as one mat- the right hon. Secretary, he had been aster of great importance in the hon. gentle-sured by lord Eldon himself that that learned lord never considered his observations in member had not hesitated to make in his a personal light, but directed solely against place in that House. Honourable members the faults incident to the Chancery who were present in the committee last system.

night would know what credit to give to The motion was agreed to.

the assertion of the hon. member; but

such members as were not present on that Navy ESTIMATES.] On the order of occasion would be surprised to hear what the day for bringing up the Report of the the fact really was. He certainly did, last Committee of Supply,

night quote nineteen years' experience Mr. Hume expressed his determination upon a particular point-not with respect to oppose the motion. He thought that to expense, or to the extent of establishthe House ought not to have been called ments, but merely as to the form in which upon to vote any money, until ministers had a notice was entered on the Notice-book. made a general statement of the scale at Whether the notice referred to five thouwhich the whole of the establishments of the sand men or one hundred and forty thoucountry were to be maintained. He would sand men ; to 100,0001. or 1,000,0001., not be deterred from condemning what he was not the question at the moment. The conceived to be the profligate waste of the hon, member took up the Notice-book, and public money, because the hon. Secretary stated that the notice was not in the usual for the Admiralty had stated last night, form. He (Mr. Croker) then stated, that that the same course had been pursued for the notice had stood in the same form nineteen years. Ministers required thirty for the last nineteen years. He would thousand" seamen for the present year, now leave the matter with the House, which was precisely the amount voted last as a specimen of the credit which was to year. From this he thought he had a be attached to the statements of the hon. right to infer that they did not intend to member. The hon. member expressed his reduce the establishments at all. Yet it apprehensions, that ministers were desirous was only last session that a minister, who of maintaining the establishments on the was now unfortunately unable to keep the present scale, coute qui coute. Now, the pledge which he made, declared that our very fact that the vote passed last night finances were in such a precarious state as was for only six months, instead of for a to render the most rigid economy absolutely year as usual, was an admission, on the necessary. The existing state of the world part of ministers, that the amount of the was not such as to require the maintenance establishments was to be kept open for of a large naval force. The piracies in the decision of the finance committee, and the West Indies and in South America, finally of the House. He must, however, which had been urged as a plea for fin- be allowed to state, that the present creasing our navy, had been completely amount of our naval establishment was not put down. The Turkish feet, too, had too large for the demands of our commerce. been destroyed. On what pretext, then, No less than twenty thousand seamen was the present establishment required ? were at that moment employed on the After repeating the observations which he foreign stations, in protecting our trade. made in the committee last night, the hon. He believed that England never had a member concluded by moving, that the re- smaller disposable idle force at home than port be brought up on this day week. at that moment. Out of the thirty thou

Mr. Croker observed, that the statement sand seamen, the whole of our force, not with which the hon. member commenced less than twenty-seven thousand were his speech might be taken as a tolerably actually at sea. It might be objected, fair specimen of the correctness of the that too many guard ships were kept up; statements with which he was in the habit there were three at each port. It had of indulging the House. Referring to always been the practice of England to something which had passed in the com- maintain these ships, and he thought the mittee last night, the hon, member had practice was wise. It was those guardsaid that he would not be deterred from ships that had enabled us to make an criticising the scale of public expense and effectual effort in Europe last December, the waste of public money, because he when our troops were embarked, and on (Mr. Croker) had told him, that the same their way to Portugal within twenty-four course had been pursued for nineteen years. hours after the public were aware that the That was the statement which the hon. I expedition had been determined on. The

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Navy Estimates.

hon. member for Aberdeen might, perhaps, country, and that every reduction had been
be in possession of some new lights as to made consistently with those wants. More
the mode in which our navy ought to be than that he would not say. With respect
managed ; but the navy of England had to the finance committee, he trusted that
always been conducted on the present as only three days would elapse before it
system in time of peace; and in his opinion would be appointed, he should be excused
it was the wisest and the best.

for deferring any explanation respecting it Mr. Bernal was of opinion that some till then. expressions which had fallen from the right Mr. Hudson Gurney said, that he had hon. member for Liverpool last night re- pretty much the same expectation as to quired explanation. The right hon. gentle- any great good being to be done by the man had distinctly stated, that the pro- finance committee as had been expressed jected finance committee had nothing to by the hon. member for Rochester ; but do with the amount of the civil and he thought the hon. member for Aberdeen military establishments; that it was not could not possibly bring forward any plan within the scope of any finance-committee, of economy less likely to be popular, than to touch upon those delicate topics. If any thing materially crippling the British this was the case, what was the committee navy; particularly, as he was informed, to do? and what was the House to do by a very high naval authority, that the with its report when made? What was ships were now sent to sea so extremely the meaning of taking the vote of seamen under-manned, that in case of any sudden for six months only, if it was not in collision some very awkward accidents anticipation of some effect to be produced might be expected. by the report of the committee? 'If, how- Mr. Monch said, that the hon. Secretary ever, that committee was to be restricted to the Admiralty had not given a satisfactory in its operations—if it was only to report answer to the statements of his hon. friend. that our finances were in a delicate situa- It did appear, that since 1817, our naval tion, he would call it a splendid humbug force had been increased from nineteen on the country. For his own part, he thousand to thirty thousand men. A thoucould not see any thing unconstitutional in sand men had been for the purpose of the committee determining the amount of suppressing the piracies in the West Indies; our military as well as our civil establish- then came other additions, in consequence ments. If it had not that object, what was of the Burmese war, the protection of our the use of postponing the other grants commerce in South America, and the until it was formed ? Unless some reduc-affairs of the Mediterranean. Now, if all tion was contemplated, he could not see these causes were in operation together, why the amount of all the grants for the he could easily understand the necessity service of the year should not be stated at for keeping up our naval force to its proonce. It would not do to approach our posed amount; but as most of those causes financial difficulties gently. They ought had ceased to exist, why should the larger to be treated in

bold manner.

The force be continued ? There were two wound should be probed to the bottom. things to be considered with respect to No temporary applications would be suffi- our naval force : first, what was the amount cient. If the intended finance committee necessary to be kept up; and next, what was not appointed for such object, he were the resources of the country to bear cared not a straw for its appointment. He the expense ? As to the first, he could hoped the right hon. gentleman opposite not see why the same necessity for prowould give the House some explanation tecting her commerce would not apply to on this point.

America. She had a commerce to protect Mr. Secretary Peel said, that after the as well as England, and yet her naval appeal which had been made to him, hecould force bore no proportion to that which we not remain silent. He would admit that the kept up. Then, as to the means for estimates, as laid before the House, were keeping this force up, he thought the country those which had been prepared by lord could not afford it; and he had no doubt, Goderich's administration. It was asked, that if such extravagant establishments whether he was prepared to pledge himself were maintained, it would lead, at no very to those resolutions? He would answer, distant period, to some dreadful explosion, that they were, he believed, made up in which the credit of the country ñust with reference to the present wants of the suffer. Under all the circumstances of

a

es

the case, he thought there ought to be as the Colonies was correct. Those words delay of a few days, until all the accounts were, that the finance committee “would were before the House.

not examine as to the extent of our estabSir Byam Martin said, that great public lishments.” Those were the exact words, inconvenience would follow if any delay and he had heard them with surprise and took place in bringing up the report, as regret.

He said, “ with regret” as he the funds were required for the public thought that the finance committee service.

would be productive of much good. The Mr. Alderman Waithman said, that was ministers, he had no doubt, did not wish no reason why the House should not do to keep up large military establishments, its duty. Why had not parliament been but they were in a great measure controlled summoned to meet in November, if there by the aristocracy--by those who returned was a necessity for having these votes so a majority of the members of that House, soon? As to the vote before the House, and who urged them to many measures to he would not concur in it, until a state- which they would otherwise be opposed. ment of the whole services of the year Now, having heard the words he had were laid before them. The only effectual mentioned, he owned he was much surcontrol which the House had over the prised at the explanation given by the administration of the country was to with- right hon. the Home Secretary, that his hold the supplies, and he would do so right hon. friend had not meant the civil until the accounts he had mentioned were establishments, the words used were supplied. He would not consent to the tablishments ;" and he begged to ask, vote on the credit of ministers, or in anti- whether it did not mean all establishments? cipation of what might be done by the This finance committee had been already finance committee; for in the labours of productive of much misunderstanding. It that committee he professed he had no had been the destruction of one ministry, confidence.

and he hoped it would not be the means Mr. G. Robinson said, he expected of breaking up another; as it was better to much benefit to the country from the have any one fixed, than to be, as the labours of the finance committee, but he country had been for some time past, hoped that they would not be restricted almost without any government. It seemed from inquiring into the extent of our civil very strange that it should have occasioned establishments. With respect to the present so great à misunderstanding as to its ministry, he highly approved of the mem- objects as existed between two ministers bers who composed it, and he should be of the Crown in that House. One of those glad if their measures were such as he ministers came down to the House on could support.

Monday, and stated one thing, and anoMr. Peel said, the hon. member was ther came down on the Tuesday and made mistaken in supposing that such an opinion a statement quite different. had fallen from his right hon, friend, as He trusted that the version which the that the finance committee would be right hon. gentleman had put upon what restricted from inquiring into the civil his right hon. colleague had said, was the establishments of the country.

In the true version. He trusted that the finance course of their labours, they would be committee would be constituted so as to allowed as much scope as any other enter on the extent of the establishments finance committee that had ever been of the country, and on the best means of appointed.

giving it relief; and that we should have a Mr. K. Douglas said, it was impossible real and not a delusory advantage arising to refuse the present vote, without greatly out of its inquiries. He certainly had no injuring the public service. The increase intention to draw the right hon. gentleman in our naval force was necessary for the into any dilemma which might hinder the due protection of our commerce in every establishment of the committee on the best part of the world. If England did not possible plan; and therefore he trusted maintain her superiority at sea, she could that the right hon. gentleman would not not maintain her proper rank amongst consider any thing which he had just said nations.

as an impediment to the mode in which it Mr. C. P. Thompson said, that the re- was intended to construct it. For the presentation made of the words which had same reason, though he should prefer a fallen from the right hon. Secretary for vote of credit being taken upon the grant

which was then before the House, he | House look at the manner in which the would not, if the point to which he had American navy had treated the new states alluded was clearly explained, offer any of South America; and at the manner opposition to it. He must, however, be in which it had exerted itself to put down permitted to say a few words, in reply to piracy in the Mediterranean. Wherever the observations which the hon. Secretary in act of outrage had been committed had ventured to make upon the speech of upon an American vessel, summary venthe hon. member for Montrose. Nothing geance had been taken upon the perpetracould be more hypocritical than those tors of it; who had been compelled to observations. The hon. Secretary began make the utmost reparation for it, to those by stating, that the vote was only taken whom they had oppressed and injured. If, for six months, for the House would have therefore, the calls for protection made by an opportunity of discussing it again, our merchants were so urgent upon the when the number of seamen for the year Admiralty, and if, with our large navy, we came to be settled ; and then the hon. had not ships enough to protect our commember concluded by stating, that the merce, there must be something faulty in present number of men was absolutely the direction of our naval resources, and necessary for the service; thus leaving the our complaints ought to be attributed to House and the country without any hopes that source. of having any reduction effected in this Mr. Secretary Peelobserved, that he would branch of the public expenditure. Now he leave the House to judge whether the hon. thought that a great reduction could gentleman had any right to infer from any be effected in this department, and that it thing that he had said that night, that any was imperiously called for by the exigencies difference of opinion existed between himof the country; for it was not now a ques- self and the right hon. Secretary for the tion of what establishments we could wish Colonies on the subject of the finance comto have, but of what establishments we could mittee. All he had done that night was afford to keep. If we could not afford to to deny that his right hon. colleague had pay for expensive establishments, we asserted that the finance committee had ought not to keep them. But the argu- nothing to do with the extent of our ment of the hon. Secretary deserved civil establishments. Having said thus further notice. He appealed to the ex- much, he trusted he should not be conperience of the commercial men who had sidered as acting disrespectfully to the seats in the House, and said, that there House, when he declared his intention of were calls made upon the Admiralty by postponing till Friday next, any explaour merchants to give protection to our nation respecting the finance committee. commerce in all parts of the world. It Thus much he would state now, that might be so; but if it was so, there must no limitation would be imposed upon its be something radically wrong in our pre- powers which had not been imposed on sent system. He knew how vulgar it was the finance committees which were apdeemed in that House to quote the exam- pointed in 1786, 1797, and 1817. ple of a republican government like the Mr. Maberly said, he recollected exUnited States as a model for the imitation tremely well, that the right hon. Secreof a monarchical government like that of tary for the Colonies had stated distinctly Great Britain ; but he would not be de- that the finance committee was to have terred by that consideration, from placing nothing to do with the extent of our before the House statements pregnant naval and military establishments, but with instruction. It was notorious that that it was to confine itself entirely to American commerce was better protected an inquiry into the amount and approfrom insult and aggression by a navy of priation of the money votes. twenty-eight ships, which was less than an satisfied with the explanation which the eighth part of our own navy, than the right hon. Secretary had just given the commerce of England was protected by House. If the committee of finance all the floating castles which we maintained, were to have the same powers which had at an immense expense, in different parts been conferred upon former committees, of the ocean. It was a very rare circum- he should be satisfied.

One thing was stance to hear that American commerce of importancethe names which the right had suffered any injury, from the inter- hon. gentleman would submit to the ference of any foreign power. Let the House on Friday night. He should judge

He was