THE

tional rights of the inhabitants, under the their lordships that this was not a measure act of 1791. After the recess it was his of their seeking. On the contrary, they intention to call the attention of the House felt that it might cause them great inconto the whole of this great subject. venience; yet feeling it to be a measure

After a short reply, the worthy alder- of justice to the community at large, they man consented to withdraw his motion. were ready to acquiesce in its provisions.

He intended to propose that the provisions HOUSE OF LORDS.

of the bill should extend to Moravians

also. Friday, March 28.

A clause to this effect was then agreed OFFENCES AGAINST Person

to; as was also a clause for excluding Bill.] Their lordships having gone into the testimony of persons attainted of a Committee on this bill,

perjury. The Marquis of Lansdowne proposed, that the words in the different clauses,

HOUSE OF COMMONS. which went to give the “bodies of murderers and other criminals to be dissected,"

Friday, March 28. should be left out of the bill. His object Penryn DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL.] in proposing to leave out these words was, | On the motion of lord John Russell, the to remove the stigma which now attached order of the day was read for the further to dissection. He had had some corre consideration of the Report of this bill. spondence with medical men on the sub- Mr. J. Stewart rose to propose a clause. ject, and they were of opinion, that the In the course of the various discussions that Iittle assistance they derived from this had taken place on this bill, the fact of the source did not counterbalance the effects corruption of the borough of Penryn had which the stigma of condemning criminals been assumed to be so notorious as to to dissection had in deterring people from admit of no doubt, and for that reason giving their bodies for dissection. If the elective franchise was to be transferred this stigma were done away, he thought to the town of Manchester. The clause something would be done to promote the he proposed to introduce would make it improvement in a branch of knowledge imperative on the members returned for which was essential to the public. Manchester, to subscribe a Declaration

The Earl of Rosebery supported the before they took their seats, that their amendment. He had been a commissioner return had not been procured by bribery, to inquire into the state of the University or by any other corrupt or improper of Edinburgh, and had an opportunity of means. This, he thought, was the most knowing that the difficulty of procuring conscientious mode of reform that could subjects caused numbers of students to go be adopted, and it would necessarily have abroad, and prevented those who remained the effect of saving Manchester, the at home from obtaining a complete edu- adopted child of the noble lord, from cation.

falling into the errors and offences which Lord Tenterden concurred in the amend had proved so fatal to the independence ment, and said it had been his intention and 'franchise of Penryn. The clause to propose it. In assenting to it, however, was to the following effect :-“Be it he wished it to be considered that it was further enacted, that the Burgesses to be of great importance to encourage a respect elected and returned for the said borough for the dead, and that any thing which of Manchester shall each, at the table of lessened that respect would be highly the House of Commons, and before they improper.

take their seats, make and subscribe a The amendment was agreed to. Declaration in the following words:

1, A. B., do solemnly declare, that I have Law or Evidence Bill.] Their lord-neither given nor promised to give, ships having gone into a committee on nor do I intend to give, either by this bill,

myself, or by any other person for me, The Marquis of Lansdowne said, that directly, or indirectly, any fee, reward, or one of its objects was to take the affirma- other gratuity, to any one of the electors tion of Quakers in all cases, criminal as of the borough of Manchester, in conwell as civil. He knew many respectable sideration of his vote, in order to my members of that body, and he assured being returned or elected as a Burgess to

a

serve in parliament for the said borough ; , until it became co-extensive with the and I believe that my return has not been representation of the House. He could procured or promoted by any peer of not understand why the advocate of a parliament or any person acting on his general measure should oppose its partial behalf.” He proposed a Declaration application; and he trusted, therefore, instead of an Oath, because he believed it that the hon. member would press the would be found generally more acceptable. clause to a division, and try the sincerity

Sir J. Newport said, he could have no of the House. possible objection to the introduction of Mr. Warburton objected to the propothis clause, if it were made part of a general sition, because it included no protection measure of reform. He remembered that, to the poor and dependent voters. If it many years ago, the hon. member for had been founded on the principle of Cumberland (Mr. Curwen) had a bill be- secret voting, which would afford a real fore the House, in which there was a protection to the labouring classes, that clause to nearly the same import. That would, indeed, be an improvement in the was a general measure, and it had his system of voting at elections. But this

port; but he had a decided objection Declaration would be a cloak -a mere p to place the representatives of Manchester tence of purity-leaving the great objecon a different footing from other members. tions to the present system as strong as Those who thought it likely that the ever. elections for Manchester would be more Mr. Secretary Peel said, he should have corrupt than those for other places, knew been astonished if any hon. member had nothing of the state of that town. If the attempted to introduce into this bill a hon. gentleman would make his Declara- proposition that votes should be given in tion part of a general measure, it should secret. He trusted he should never see have his hearty assent; but he would give the day when that principle would be his decided negative to it, if it applied to applied to the electors of this countryany particular borough.

when those electors would be so lowered Mr. D. W. Harvey was surprised at in character, that they durst not state the opposition offered to this proposition their objections openly to the candidate, by the right hon. baronet, who was so and make known their reasons for voting uniformly the advocate of reform. If the against him. That, however, was not the hon. member had made this proposition in proposition which the House had to disa bill which would have applied to all the cuss; but if it were made, he would demembers, though the right hon. baronet cidedly oppose the introduction of any might have urged no objection to it, he principle into a single bill, which, if good, was sure an abundance of members would should be made a general measure of have protested against it, as a measure too legislation. He objected to the proposed sweeping and general. It was the fashion Declaration, because it did not seem to to sanction none but partial reforms. him consistent with good sense or sound

The House was to deal with every par- policy, to confine regulation to any partiticular case as it arose ; but no principle cular borough, which, if right, should be was to be laid down for general applica- generally established. tion to delinquent boroughs. How, then, Mr. Hume believed the right hon. genwere partial benefits to be gained, but by tleman's words did not convey his real proceeding on the same principle? It meaning. Did voting by ballot lower the was said that there would be something character of the members of that House ? peculiarly invidious in placing the mem- Was it not deemed a wise and just mode bers for Manchester in a situation in to choose the members of committees by which they would appear more pure than ballot? This had long been the practice the other members of the House; or of that House, and the right hon. gentleturning the argument the other way, in man, therefore, had carried his conapprehending them to be less pure. But demnation of the proposition a little too that was not to him a sufficient reason for far. He concurred with his hon. friend, not taking advantage of the opportunity of that this Declaration ought to be a general recognizing a valuable principle, which, if measure; but if the hon. member went to they found it work well in this instance, a division, he would vote with him, though would present an example worthy of he would advise him not to press his proimitation, and might gradually spread, I position on the present bill, but to intro

duce it in the general bill, which stood for ' mission. What service could he render, Monday next, and which applied to all if the labours of the commission were to the cities and boroughs in the country. be confined merely to an analysis of the

Lord John Russell said, he could not water in its present state ? The notion agree to the proposition of the hon. mem- under which the commissioners had di. ber. Nothing could be more absurd than rected their labours was, that they were to see the two representatives of Man- bound to suggest some mode of ensuring chester subjected to a process not re- a salubrious and abundant supply of water quired from any other members of the to the whole of the metropolis. But in House.

consequence of the opinion given by the The House divided : For the clause 1 ; Secretary of State, they had found it neAgainst it 120 : Majority 119.

cessary to limit their inquiry. The right

hon. gentleman had told them to make an SUPPLY OF WATER TO THE METROPO- analysis of the water; and they, in reply, Lis.] Mr. Hobhouse, seeing the Secretary had required him to wait six weeks longer of State for the Home Department in his before it could be made. As the evidence place, begged to call his attention to the was already prepared, he thought it desirCorrespondence just laid on the table, from able to have it submitted to the House, the Commission appointed to inquire into without waiting for the analysis, the delay the Supply of Water to the Metropolis. of which would make it impossible for any He must say, in the outset, that this cor- legislative measure to pass this session. respondence was any thing but satisfac- In his opinion, it was not intended that tory; and there were one or two points in the commission should be limited to a it on which he felt it his duty to ask for mere analysis of the water. Why, he some explanation. It appeared that the would again ask, was Mr. Telford included commissioners imagined that their powers in the commission, if some engineering extended, not merely to an inquiry into survey was not intended? He understood, the present state of the supply of water to that, without taking a level, Mr. Telford the metropolis, but that they were bound could suggest such a scheme as would to suggest the means of making up the meet the wishes of government and deficiency in the supply, if there was any, parliament, and satisfy the objects of and of finding a remedy for the insalubrity the commissioners. At any rate, he of the water, if they found it to be so. trusted the right hon, gentleman would Under this impression, they had entered order the evidence already prepared to be upon a very extended examination, and presented to the House. had collected a large mass of evidence. Mr. Secretary Peel said, that when he After stating that they“ had been occu- returned to office, he found that a commispied for four months in collecting a large sion had been appointed by a former Semass of evidence relating to a much more cretary of State, enabling certain persons extended inquiry than was comprised in named in it to institute a full inquiry into the questions to which the right hon. the state of the supply of water in the Secretary had limited their commission,” metropolis. He found that the three emithey proceeded to say, “this evidence, we nent persons named in the commission had hoped, would have prepared the way for power to administer oaths to the witnesses our recommendation of a practicable and who gave evidence before them; and it efficacious plan of supplying the whole of certainly did appear that in other respects the metropolis with pure and wholesome they were furnished with ample powers to water-an object which we cannot but conduct their inquiry. As to taking levels esteem as of considerable importance, and and making surveys, he had required an which, as it appears from the several peti- estimate of the expense before he would tions to parliament givingoccasion to the pre- give his consent, but that had not been sent commission, has been so loudly and so furnished him; and he could not agree to earnestly called for by the public.” The right embark in any scheme without some limits hon. gentleman objected, that great expense being assigned to the expense that might would result from taking levels and mak- be incurred by the country. The correing surveys; but if those proceedings had spondence proved, that the commissioners not been originally intended, he would ask had full powers to conduct their inquiry. why an eminent engineer, Mr. Telford, He had not told them that they had nohad been appointed a member of the com- 1 thing to do but to make an analysis of the

water ; but surely, when it was considered sanction the appointment. His lordship that this commission bore date the 5th added, that he did not understand the June, 1827, it was surprising that no ana- commission was appointed to examine into lysis had been made, with a view to ascer- the propriety of any new works; but if tain the salubrity of the water. He did they were decidedly of opinion that such not think that that alone was all that was new works were necessary, and were disnecessary; but he did think that no posed to send in a statement of what they report could be complete without it. If conceived those works ought to be, and an the report of the commissioners should estimate of their probable expense, he show that the present companies, who de- would submit them to the consideration of rived their supply from the Thames, could the Treasury. The House would see, that not from that source give sufficient and nothing could be more inexpedient or salubrious supply, he trusted that new more inconvenient than to have a kind of companies would be formed for the better roving commission going about the country, accommodation of the public. But the in order to take plans and make levels expense of the surveys should fall on those under the direction of an engineer. It was new companies, and not on the public; in order to avoid this inconvenience that the unless government intended to undertake commission was requested to send in an the supply of water themselves. If they left estimate of the expense; but no such esit to private enterprise, the expense of em- timate was sent in while the noble lord reploying engineers should belong to the mained in office, nor did he believe that any parties engaging in the speculation. He estimate had been sent in since his resigrepeated, that he could sanction no plans nation. Much, therefore, of the delay of that kind, without a distinct estimate of complained of proceeded from the comthe expense. The letter he had written to missioners themselves. the commissioners, stating his views of Mr. Hobhouse again asked whether the their powers, had been, by his direction, right hon. gentleman had any objection laid before the right hon. gentleman (Mr. to the production of that part of the eviS. Bourne) who had issued the commission, dence which had already been taken. and he had entirely concurred in the Mr. Secretary Peel said, he had no objecwhole of it. He had no objection to tion to the production of the evidence, if the present the evidence already taken before commissioners consented. It might be the commissioners, but before he deter- that they had taken evidence upon only mined to employ engineers he would re- one side of the question in some cases ; peat—" Let us have the report on what and if they were to publish that evidence they are competent to decide; namely, the without taking the evidence which might salubrity of the water."

be opposed to it, their conduct would Mr. S. Rice said, that the delay which seem to be influenced by partiality. If, had occurred in the prosecution of the ub- however, the commissioners were not jects of the commission arose, as he opposed to its immediate production, he believed, from the following causes :- At had no objection whatever. the time when the commission was appointed, they nominated a person as se

HOUSE OF LORDS. cretary, whom they afterwards found to be incompetent to the performance of its

Monday, March 31. duties. The principal objection was, that Corn Laws.] The Duke of Wellingthis person was not versed in the science ton said, he rose for the purpose of moving of engineering; and they applied to the for certain papers, which would tend to noble lord, then at the head of the Home show their lordships the operation of the Department, to order the appointment of act of the last session, relative to the ina practical engineer. Lord Lansdowne troduction, for home consumption, of Corn expressed some doubt as to the power which warehoused before the 1st of July, 1827. he possessed to interfere in the selection of | In performing that task, he would avail such a person; but he informed the com- himself of the opportunity it afforded him mission, that if they felt themselves em- of stating to the House, the nature of the barrassed in their proceedings by the want measure to regulate the introduction of of an engineer, and were disposed to make foreign corn, which it was the intention a selection of any gentleman acquainted of government to propose to parliament, with the science of engineering, he would land the principle upon which that measure

was founded. Thir lordships were well lay a heavy tax on the exportation of Corn aware that there existed a variety of or upon its transit. He entreated their opinions respecting the introduction of lordships to consider what must be the foreign Corn; some persons holding that consequences of such an act on the part of its importation should be regulated by a those powers: for the performing of which high duty, while others contended for its they might be fully justified. But supfree introduction. He had therefore con- posing such moderation on their part, as sidered it his duty, and his colleagues had to allow this country to continue to draw considered it their duty also, in the mea- supplies from their dominions, he entreated sure which they were about to propose to their lordships to observe that this country parliament, to steer their course between would find itself, under that system, at all the two extremes, and to propose a mea- times in the same state in which it found sure which would conciliate all parties, and itself in years of famine, and would be exbe at the same time favourable to the posed to the largest prices of Corn; for public. Their lordships would recollect though the cost of production in Poland that, notwithstanding the difference of would not be increased, yet prices would opinion which existed on this subject, be regulated here, not by the prices in that

, all parties agreed that there ought to be country, but by the profits which were to some measure brought forward to regulate be derived by all those who were concerned the introduction of foreign wheat; and in the importation of the corn. Under those while some had expressed the opinion that circumstances, a reduction of duty would Corn ought to be imported into this country not be productive of a reduction in price, free from duty, and others had thought considering the state of agriculture, but that a small duty on its introduction ought would, on the contrary, produce an enorto be imposed, and if ever there should be mous increase of price. He begged their a fixed duty, in his opinion it ought to be lordships to look to Ireland, and to cona small one, –all had agreed that some sider what must be the consequences of the protection should be afforded to the agri- want of encouragement to agriculture, culturist of this country. The opinion of when applied to that country, a country those who contended for a small duty was which last year supplied England with founded upon the great burthen of taxation two million quarters of grain; the quantity in this country, the particular burthens on of wheat imported being no less than four land, and the superior mode of tillage. hundred thousand quarters. He begged The opinion of those who were in favour their lordships to consider what must of a low duty went to establish a system be the consequences of cutting off under which the poorer lands of this coun- from that country the only source of try, which had been brought into cultiva- industry--the only manufacture, with tion by the application of labour and capital, one exception which remained to her. would be thrown entirely out of cultivation, He was sure that no man who felt for and even the richer lands would be affected. that country would think it prudent to This country, he would maintain, had been make such a sacrifice, in order to introbrought into the state of cultivation in duce corn into this country at a cheaper which it now was, by the protection which rate. But he spoke not only with referhad been invariably afforded to agricul-ence to Ireland, but also to this country. ture by parliament, and which had induced He was ready to state that the gentlemen gentlemen to lay out their capital upon of this country had, by the expense of their the cultivation of waste lands. The efiect capital, and the labour which they had of the proposition of those who were for a employed on their estates, raised the agrilow duty would be to throw the poorer lands culture of the country to its present prosout of cultivation and turn them into waste, perous condition ; and nothing could be to reduce the cultivation of the richer lands, more unjust than to take from them that thus diminishing the productive powers of protection by which they had been enabled the country, and finally to throw this to bring cultivation to the state in which country for support and subsistence on it now was, and to deprive them of those foreign countries. Besides these circum- profits which were so justly their due, on stances, he begged their lordships to con- account of the capital laid out by them. sider the consequences which must result He would say that the merchant, the if the powers from whose dominions those manufacturer, the poor, and the whole resources were generally drawn were to public, were interested in the maintenance