not terminate their labours this session, his hon. friend should have subtracted six members from that committee. As to the public buildings, they were certainly a sort of hobby of his hon. friend, and no doubt he presided over the public taste very judiciously: but then his hon. friend had a manner which was directly against economy; for he was in the habit of saying,

here; take it down, and put up another." He was therefore sorry that there had been no explanation of the reasons for abducting six members from the Finance Committee.

Mr. Bankes said, that the committee for which he had moved would only sit on two or three days in the week, when the Finance Committee were not sitting..

penditure going on for the purpose of ornamenting the country, surely it was worthy of the House to see that it was applied to proper purposes. It was not, he contended, a trifling or a useless labour, to preserve the character of the country for taste, by bringing those subjects under the consideration of the House. Surely, the subject of their public buildings ought to be brought under the attention of par-"I don't like the building you have erected liament. Before now, buildings demanding a large expenditure had been undertaken wholly unknown to that House, and had never been brought under its notice until a large expense had been incurred. They had known 30,000l. or 40,000l. to be spent, in the first instance, without the cognizance of the House; and then they were obliged to go on and accomplish the work. The House had been kept too much in the dark on this point. Let them look to the Custom-house. No less a work than that had gone on, and the House was not informed of it until the foundations were laid; and they all knew how they were laid. If the Select Committee entertained the question, there was nothing to prevent the Finance Committee from applying themselves to it, as part of the national income. It would be for the Select Committee to consider how far certain works had been proper and necessary, and how far it would be right to put a stop to any of the plans now in progress.

Mr. Arbuthnot said, that as allusion had been made to him, it became necessary for him to state that he had nothing to do with the formation of this committee; but he would, as head of the Woods and Forests Department, do every thing in his power to give effect to the inquiry. He had no desire to screen himself from any investigation. He had only to ask the committee fairly to do its duty. He should not have been placed in his present office if there had been any thing in his conduct that would not bear the strictest scrutiny. If it were allowable for a man to speak of himself, he would say that twenty-one years ago, he had obtained, not through great connexions, nor by ministerial influence, an income under an act of parliament, fully equal to that which he now possessed. He might also be permitted to observe, that on the present occasion he had not sought for office.

...Sir J. Yorke said, it appeared to him very extraordinary, that, after they had been told that the Finance Committee could

Mr. R. Colborne said, that when they saw the encroachments which were daily making upon the park, it was high time that there should be no doubt as to the intention of government. He had seen numbers of trees railed round, and it appeared to him to be intended to cut them down. He thought these were fair objects for the investigation of a committee. The Treasury board had very little leisure to bestow upon such subjects, and he had never known a chancellor of the Exchequer who did not pray to be released from such an addition to his labours. It was, therefore, become absolutely necessary to have a committee of some kind, under whose authority the matter might be fairly investigated, and who might be able to apply some timely check to the present extravagant proceedings. They saw every where extensive and costly buildings erected, as it was supposed, upon regular estimates, but when they were completed it frequently turned out that there had been no estimate at all. Much good might arise from an inquiry. At all events, he deprecated any attempt to take these things out of the hands of a committee, in order to place them under the control of the office of Woods and Forests.

The Hon. G. A. Ellis said, he wished to take that opportunity of putting a question or two to the first commissioner of Woods and Forests. First, he wished to know whether it was intended to cut down the north row of trees in the Mall in St. James's park? It would be in the recollection of the House, that in answer to a question put last session, it was affirmed, that government would keep to the inten

, 1828. 1310 tion it originally held of not removing | ascertaining if he understood there was those trees. He pwned he entertained any latitude allowed him in carrying great doubts upon this subject, from per- the designs into execution, and he ceiving the railing which had been placed had been distinctly informed, that there round the trees, and which was a most ex- was no such latitude, nor no intention to tensive encroachment. He had, indeed, alter what was originally proposed. While understood that Mr. Nash, the architect, on his legs, he would allude to the abducintended to raise a bank, covered with tion, as it had been called, of some memshrubs, in order to hide the dead wall bers from the Finance Committee. , But which was an unseemly object. But, if he did not think that abduction at all that were all that was in view, the railing inconsistent or absurd. For, as this part ought to have been on the north side, and of the public expenditure was to be brought the benefit of the shade of the trees given under the consideratiou of the Finance to the public. It was rumoured, too, that Committee, that committee would be the Mr. Nash had said that parliament did better prepared to deal properly with it, if not sit all the year rou

and it would be a few of their members were employed in seen what would be done when parliament arranging the subject for the consideration was not sitting. The other question he of all of them. He did not think any dehad to ask was, whether there was to be triment could ensue from the committee an opening into St. James's park, oppo- being preceded in their labours by the Jasite Waterloo-place? A foot-way en- bours of a few gentlemen selected from trance here was so evident an improve among themselves. With respect to the ment, that he should not have put the word “suspicious,” he did not know in question if it had not been rumoured that what sense the hon. baronet meant to apMr, Nash did not wish there to be any ply, it. If the hon. baronet meant to say such opening

that because he was connected with goMr. Arbuthnot denied any responsibility vernment he would take steps to cloak or on the score of the execution of the plans conceal any part of the system-if the hon. for the improvements in the park; for baronet supposed him capable of going though they were sent to his office, they into any committee to which he should be were proceeded on after he left it. Both appointed by that House, to be instrufrom the government and Mr. Nash he mental in crushing or misleading the inhad received the most positive assurances, quiries of such committee, the hon.. bathat it was not intended to cut down the trees ronet imputed to him conduct of which he in the Mall. He did not think it quite fair was totally incapable. He would report, to talk of encroachments upon the parks. as freely as any hon. gentleman not conWhen he had waited upon the king to take nected with government, and as honestly his commands upon the plan of improve as the hon. baronet himself would, if he ments, his majesty expressly desired that were a member of the commission. a carriage road should be opened from Sir J. Graham disclaimed any intention Pimlico to Storey's Gate, that the whole to impute improper motives to the two of that part of the park where the cattle right hon. gentlemen. grazed should be opened to the public, Upon the subject of the foot-way through WAYS AND MEANS.) The House havthe buildings at Waterloo-place, it was not ing resolved itself into a committee,

a in his power to give any answer. He be- The Chancellor of the E.cchequer said, lieved there was no such path in the ori- that in agreeing to the vote which he was ginal plans.

about to propose, the committee would not Mr. Herries said, that when a question pledge itself to any opinion whatsoever. was put to him last year, he had stated The House was only called upon to vote distinctly that it was not the intention to the appropriation of money which would cut down any of the trees, except one be paid on the 5th of April and the 6th which projected so as to interfere with the of July, next, What was to be done with wall. At that time, the plan shewing the the money would be matter of after-connew alterations was before the House ; sideration, but this preliminary step was and there was no intention on the part of necessary. With this observation he the Treasury to make any alteration in merely proposed calling on the House to it. He had even taken the trouble to vote for the appropriation of the sum of see the architect, for the purpose of 2,164,0001., which would be paid by the trustees of naval and military pensions on that really after the compliment his gallant the 5th of April and the 5th of July. friend had paid him, he did not see how

Mr. Calcraft took occasion to allude his gallant friend could expect him to give again to the slow proceedings of the any opinion on the mass of figures which Finance Committee, and expressed a wish | Mr. Finlayson had laid before the Finance that there was some statement laid before Committee. To the best of his judgment, the House of the actual income and ex- however, the system had produced a loss penditure of the country. An hon. to the country; that was the opinion baronet the other evening had stated, that also of the Finance Committee. With he did not expect much from the Finance respect to what had fallen from an hon. Committee, because, although our income gentleman, he could assure him, that the was above fifty millions, more than thirty Finance Committee had never, in the remillions were absorbed by the debt, so ductions they contemplated, lost sight of that they had not more than nineteen or the charges of collecting the revenue ; and twenty millions to deal with. Now, he that the most effectual means would be confessed this alarmed him very much as taken to lay before the public a clear and to the results to be expected from the ex- plain statement of the national accounts. amination. He looked, not to the nominal Sir J. Newport did not know how it amount paid into the Treasury, but at the was possible for the Finance Committee sum drawn from the pockets of the people. to do more than they were doing. They That sum was nearly fifty-eight millions, sat three times a week, from twelve to but more than eight millions were spent four, and the sub-committee sat on the in the collection; so that the nett amount alternate days. He hoped the committee to be applied to the public expenditure would not suffer itself to be burried forwas only fifty millions. If, therefore, the ward by the anxiety, however commenddifference between the nett income and the able, of individuals; and that it would gross income was added to the sum the abstain from making any report, until it committee had to work upon, there would could make one which would be satisfacbe, instead of nineteen or twenty millions, tory to the public. a sum of twenty-seven millions, out of Sir M. W. Ridley said, that too sanwhich the Finance Committee was to guine expectations of reduction should not labour in the work of reduction. He re- be held out, when it was considered that collected hearing, some years ago, that a 30,000,0001. were to be paid as interest of proposition was made to lord Liverpool, the debt, and the charge for the army, of uniting the Boards of Customs and navy, &c. amounted to 19 or 20,000,0001. Excise, and it was said that by this union He admitted that the charge of 8,000,0001. 1,500,0001. a year would be saved. Lord for the collection of the Revenue was one Liverpool was inclined to attend to it, but that merited the strict attention of the lord Castlereagh put it aside, for a reason committee. The committee, he was sure, which he did not think it proper to men would gladly receive any suggestion from tion then. At those two boards there his hon. friend; and he should be glad if were thirty-four commissioners and as they had the benefit of his assistance. sistant commissioners, and he did think Mr. Calcraft observed, that the Finance this an immense body of persons to transact Committee, would not be the worse for the business of the boards, and that a very being reminded of particular duties as it great reduction might be made.

proceeded. With reference to the meaSir J. Yorke wished to ask the chan- sure, however, which had already emanated cellor of the Exchequer, who he knew was from it-the bill for repealing the power not like Mr. Pitt, an heaven-born minister of granting life annuities - he did not -indeed, his right hon. friend had come quite agree in the course which had been into office without knowing much more pursued, and wished that Mr. Finlayson's than that two and two made four, or at all letter should be laid before the House. events knowing very little about Treasury As it seemed to him, the table of rates, affairs—he wished to ask his right hon. subject to which these annuities had been friend, whether in his opinion Mr. Fin- granted, ought to be changed, rather than layson, that modern Cocker, had not taken the practice of granting them discontinued. very exaggerated views on the subject of Mr. Baring bore testimony to the conthese life annuities?

stant exertions of the Finance Committee, The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, I and particularly to those of the hon,

chairman whose attention to its business Sir J. Wrottesley protested against the was unremitting

continuance of a Sinking-fund on the Mr. Hume said, that the money named principle of that now sanctioned by parin the vote was money to be received liament. What could be more absurd from the Bank in the way of loan; and in private life, than for a gentleman to he entirely objected to applying borrowed spend the whole of his income, go into money to the support of the Sinking-fund. debt, borrow a sum of money to pay it, The statement of the right hon. Home and then exclaim,“ See what a job I have Secretary a few nights ago had shown made of it, I have paid off a couple of that at most there was only a surplus of thousand pounds with one hand, which I 50,0001. applicable to the redemption of have borrowed with the other !” The questhe debt. He believed that there was no tion for the House to consider was, whether surplus at all

, but a deficiency rather, to they would continue the absurd act which three times that amount; but at all events obliged them to maintain a fund for the that sum was the most which could be redemption of their debt, when all their available. He thought, therefore, that income was absorbed by their expendiinstead of applying borrowed money to ture. sustain this Sinking-fund, it would be The resolution was agreed to. better to wait and see whether the Finance Committee did not pronounce the whole LIFE ANNUITIES REPEAL Bill.) Sinking-fund a delusion. He was dis- On the motion for the further consideraposed to move, as an amendment, that tion of the report of this bill, the money in question should not be Mr. Calcraft suggested, that it would carried to the account of the consolidated be more expedient to suspend this bill, fund, but used to take up part of our un- than to repeal it. funded debt; which perhaps we might not Mr. Herries said, that the objection was always be able to take up upon such fa- to the tables and not to the principle of vourable terms as we could at present. the bill itself. Any loss which might have

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, been sustained would not be remedied by that the suspension of the appropriation of the repeal of the act now.

The only this money would not alter the arrange thing that could be done would be to prement relative to the Sinking-fund; but it vent the granting of other annuities until would deprive the government of supplies new tables were prepared. In this view which were wanted for the purposes of of it he concurred in the suggestion of the immediate necessity.

hon. member, that they should not at once Mr. Herries said, that the hon. mem- repeal the act, but rather suspend it, in ber had greatly under-stated the amount order to afford time for considering what of surplus over expenditure, when he other tables could be got ready, which stated it to be only 50,0001. The amount might put an end to the apparent loss; of surplus was to be estimated not only by for he was not convinced that the loss the amount of income, but also by that of was a real one. He admitted that they our expenditure. Now, admitting that had good authority for saying that there there was to be no increase in our income, was a loss; and on that ground the comfrom the estimates it would appear that mittee had recommended an immediate there was a reduction of 1,200,0001. in consideration of the subject, and that our expenditure. This, therefore, gave us other tables should be adopted.

He contogether with the 2,000,0001. from the curred in the suggestion for suspending Bank, if it should be appropriated to the the act, but whether it were suspended or Sinking-fund, 3,000,0001.° more than repealed, it would amount to the same the 50,0001. which the hon. member had thing; for the repeal would be on the understated to be the only sum which we could standing that it was to continue only till appropriate to the Sinking-fund. The new tables could be prepared. It appeared committee must clearly perceive that this from Mr. Finlayson's letter that a loss 2,000,0001. should go to the credit of the had been sustained by the public, amountincome of the country, however it might ing to about 8,0001. a-week on the anbe appropriated. The prospect of a nuities sold under this act; and that loss probable increase in the revenue would had been attributed to want of due attenaugment still further the available re- tion to the interests of the public, in not sources of the country,

having some such measure as the present VOL. XVIII,

a

proposed some years ago, when the matter that stock would have produced from that was brought under the consideration of time; and, comparing it with the value the Treasury. A noble lord (Bexley) had received by the purchaser in his annuity, been the first person blamed for this he showed that, in one year, there had omission. Now, he would acquit that been a loss of 10,700l. ; and, as a great noble lord from blame altogether. The proportion of the annuitants were living letter was received by him (Mr. Herries) the loss still continued. The right hon. on the 30th of April, 1827, five years I gentleman had said, that nothing could be after that noble lord had quitted the done by government, in consequence of Treasury. As to lord Goderich, he was the communication made to them; but it equally free from blame. He was. glad should be recollected, that all the inthe production of the Letter had been surance offices had altered their calculamoved for, as it would be seen by it that tions of insurance about that time; but it the respectable individual by whom it was singular that government should not was written had announced, that he have made a similar alteration, having the would

prove his statement by tables which information before them as to the loss he was preparing, but which were not which the country was sustaining, by the ready. So that the proof was, in fact, rate at which the annuities were granted. not yet before the Treasury. But those Surely, they might have ceased to grant any to whom the letter was addressed were fresh annuities, until the promised tables aware of the nature of the loss, and were ready. He agreed in what had been that it did not depend on the con- said about suspending the act for the tinuance of the act, but arose from present ; for no man could doubt that the annuities already granted, and which transfer was a loss to the public ; but his could not be taken away, being on lives great surprise was, that this step had not which turned out to be longer than the been taken before. The right hon. genusual average. Any alteration in, or tleman had said, that the letter of Mr. even the repeal of, the act, could make no Finlayson was received only on the 30th difference to the public with respect to of April

, 1827, but that letter alluded to those annuities, and for this reason—that a former letter, written in 1819, of which when the funds rose above 80, the pur- nothing was said, and which was not bechaser of the annuity could not get any fore the House. It was said, that lord advantage from the difference above that Bexley had told the writer to make his price. The price was above 80 at the calculations and tables ; but if a loss was time the letter was written, so that the then pointed out, why had not some steps Treasury could wait, without any loss to been taken with a view to amend the the public, until the tables were ready; act ? and there was even a compensating power Mr. Herries, in explanation, observed, in the high price against any loss that that the letter of 1819 did not speak of might have been sustained before. He the great loss to which the last letter adhoped the House would adopt the sug- verted, but merely announced that the gestion of the hon. member, and allow tables were unfavourable to the public. the act to be suspended, and not re- The subject was one of such extreme difpealed.

ficulty, that it ought not to excite surLord Althorpe said, it was clear that prise that no step was taken on it inmea considerable loss had been sustained diately. by the public from the annuities granted Lord Howick said, that when the letter under the act. Blame might not be at should be before the House, it would, he tributable to government for what took had no doubt, be seen, that blame atplace before they received the communi-tached in some quarter for not having cation alluded to, but he understood that acted upon it earlier, as great loss had annuities had since then been granted on accrued to the public from the mistaken the same disadvantageous térms to the calculations on which the annuities had public. If that were so, blame must rest been granted. He agreed that it would somewhere. The communication of Mr. be proper to suspend the act for the Finlayson was a sort of debtor and present. creditor account. He showed the amount Mr. Huskisson said, the noble lord paid by the purchaser, the amount of seemed to think that the public would stock cancelled, and the amount which gain on the contracts already made by the