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be considered as an expense to the country; I not confined to England, for that we had for to supply a man with an outfit and pro- inoculated our neighbours with a similar visions, which he was to repay in a year indifference to the manner in which emior two, could not be considered an expense. gration was conducted. From a letter He had better ground for his denial than which he had seen, it appeared that some the right hon. baronet; for no proof what time ago a ship, the “Helen Maria,” of ever had been offered on the other side. two hundred and forty tons, sailed from But, to come to the question more imme- | Amsterdam for America, with three diately before the House, he begged to hundred and eleven emigrants on board ; deny that the regulations contained in the a number which, it must be admitted, present bill were any infraction of the was more than could be sufficiently acprinciples of free trade. What did those commodated in a vessel of that size. After regulations propose ? They made it impe- being a short time at sea, the vessel met rative on the master of a ship, taking out with severe weather, and was dismasted. emigrant passengers, to provide a sufficient She afterwards got into Falmouth, where quantity of water and proper food for the it was discovered that no attention had voyage. Were not these called for by been paid to the situation of the passenthe common dictates of humanity ? Could gers. The greatest want of cleanliness any thing be more reasonable or humane, was perceived among them. On looking than that some such regulations should be to the state of their provisions, it was enforced, for the benefit of those who, from found that their beef was good, but that their situation, could not be aware of the the bread and water were both bad, and privations to which they might be exposed deficient in quantity. No doubt many in a long voyage? He was astonished that instances could be adduced of vessels leavhon. gentlemen were not ashamed to come ing our own ports, equally deficient in the down to that House, and object to regula- quality and quantity of the provisions; and tions such as those proposed by the bill, was the House to permit such cases to be on the ground that they were in violation of frequent occurrence, without making of the principles of free trade. The right some regulations by which so many evils hon. baronet complained that government might be avoided ? It was their duty to see had acted on the representations of inter- that such regulations were enforced; and ested individuals. From whom could the on these grounds he felt himself bound to government expect representations of this support the present bill. kind, and on whose testimony could they Mr. Stanley admitted the great zeal and place reliance, if not on those of distin- perseverance of his right hon. friend on guished individuals, holding situations of the subject of emigration, and the readigreat trust and responsibility ? Was no ness with which, in the course of his attention to be paid to the official state- ! labours in the committee, he had attended ments of such men as the governors of to every humane suggestion that had been Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, or New- made. He was sorry, however, that he foundland ? Yet all these had concurred had on this occasion deviated so much in their communications to government, from the question before the House, and as to the evils produced by large masses of mixed up a theoretical question with one emigrants going out without any prepara- which was purely practical. With the tion or provision. Sir James Kemp said, opinions of his right hon. friend on the that such was the wretched and sickly bill, he fully concurred. The right hon. condition of many of the parties that ar- baronet, and the hon. member for Monrived from this country, that the hospital was trose, had argued the question as if their soon filled with them, and that more exten- only object was to get rid of the supersive accommodation of that kind was found abundant population, no matter how, but necessary. But such cases were not iso- at the cheapest possible rate. The reprelated. The whole of the colonies cried sentations on which the government had out against the system as it had been acted were, he contended, such as they recently carried on; and there was scarcely could not refuse to attend to; and all a private letter which reached this country, these had concurred in stating, that the which was not full of such representations, colonies would not receive the miserable and which did not call for relief from the and almost unserviceable crowds who went pressure of emigration so conducted. It out in search of employment. The consewould appear, also, that this system was 'quence was, that some such measure as

VOL. XVIII,

the present was necessary. The hon. parties were exposed to who were prevented member for Montrose had objected to the from emigration. The hon. gentleman correspondence on which some of the de- then went on to contend that no case had tails rested; but he would appeal to the yet been made out for the proposed reguwhole House whether, if one twentieth part lations, and that they ought in the first inof that correspondence had reached the stance to be submitted to the inquiries of hon. member, they should ever have had a committee above stairs. an end of his comments upon it? The hon. Mr. S. Wortley said, he had been a member had set himself up as the apostle member of the Emigration committee, and of free trade; but admitting his apostle- from all that had there appeared, there ship, he must dispute his doctrine, that was no one who could doubt that some in no case, and under no circumstances, regulations were necessary, and more parwere the principles of free trade to be de- ticularly as the season was now approachparted from. The case before the House ing when emigration would take place. was one which called for the proposed re- He therefore would give his support to the gulations, and it would, he maintained, be bill. doing great injustice to the colonists, as Mr. Baring said, that the only question well as to the emigrants, if they were not was whether there ought to be a committee adopted. The whole of the communica- up stairs to examine further into the subtions received on the subject proved that ject, or whether they should at once decide those regulations were necessary. He had the question. voted for the repeal of the last bill, but Sir J. Beresford said, he had had frequent he could not conscientiously withhold opportunities of conversing with governors his support from this, or suffer another and admirals stationed in the colonies, season of emigration to pass without hav- who all concurred in bearing testimony to ing some regulations in force, which would the sufferings of the miserable emigrants prevent a recurrence of the mischiefs that whose necessities had driven them to seek had arisen from the want of them.

shelter in a foreign country. Mr. P. Thompson contended, that his The bill was then read a second time. hon. friends did not oppose this bill on the ground of particular restrictions.

HOUSE OF LORDS. they asked was, that it should go to a committee up-stairs, to inquire whether any

Thursday, March 20. restrictions were necessary, and if any Buenos-AYRES AND BRAZIL.] Lord thing could prove that the House was not Strangford, seeing his noble friend the the best place where such inquiry should Secretary of State in his place, wished to be made, it would be the tone and temper solicit his attention to a matter of the in which the Secretary for the colonies had utmost importance to the commercial addressed the House upon it. He gave interests of this country. He alluded to great credit to that right hon. gentleman the fatal operation upon those interests, of for his principles of free trade, and wished that most absurd and mischievous warfare him joy of his steady adherence to them. which had so long been permitted to subsist The maxim of the right hon. gentleman between the states of Buenos Ayres and on this occasion seemed to be,

Brazil. Some time ago his noble friend Video meliora proboque, had given hopes to the merchants connectDeteriora sequor."

ed with the South American trade, that the The hon. member then proceeded to con- influence of the British government would tend, that there was no analogy between be used to put an end to the state of things the necessity of régulations in ships con- under which the commerce of this country veying slaves, and those now made for had so long suffered. He could not doubt emigrants. The slave was forced to make of the zeal and earnestness with which the voyage, but the emigrant acted volun- that influence had been employed; but he tarily, and could, beforehand, inspect the feared that hitherto it had produced no accommodations prepared for him. If it effect in restoring peace, for at least one was thought necessary to legislate as to the of the parties to that war continued to quality of the emigrant's food in his commit acts, in some instances of such voyage across the Atlantic, hon. members atrocious barbarity against the persons of should look at the other side of the picture, English merchants, as, he verily believed, and consider what a continuation of misery I were never equalled, unless by the deeds

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of the old Bucaniers. His noble friend he was encouraged in entertaining that would allow him to say, that whatever hope by the information which he had might be thought of the value of our rela- received. No efforts had been wanting tions with the New States in South on the part of this country, through its America, he had lived long enough in ministers at Buenos Ayres or Rio, to prothose countries to be quite persuaded, that duce so happy a result ; but it must not there was but one trade with them which be wondered at if those efforts had not was of the slightest real importance to this been successful among parties, whose country,--he meant the trade with Brazil. pretensions were so wide, and between That trade was, at the present moment, whom there was so much bitterness against completely suspended, owing to the state each other. With respect to the injury to of insecurity and uncertainty growing out our commerce, he understood it arose of this war of pillage and plunder. He from two causes; namely, the privateers happened to know that at that moment and the blockade of the country. goods to the amount of 1,500,000l. ster- With respect to the privateers, no effort ling were ready to be shipped to Brazil; had been wanting on the part of governbut which merchants did not dare to ship ment to do whatever the law of nations so long as this war continued; a war ac- would allow in such a case. Government companied with circumstances extremely had received certain information that like those which were made a ground of privateers had been fitted out under letters very extreme measures indeed in another from Buenos Ayres, with the capital, and part of the world. He understood that under the management of persons in no there was a capital of 2,000,0001. locked wise connected with that country. That up in Rio, which the merchants there was a practice contrary to the law of nacould not export to this country, because tions, and instructions had been sent out the exchange was against them to the to his majesty's admiral in those quarters extent of from 24 to 28 per cent.

to take such energetic measures as would Earl Dudley said, it was undoubtedly put a stop to that practice, and to punish true, that war had been going on for a the persons so employed. With respect considerable time between Buenos Ayres to the blockade, he knew that government and Brazil, which had been attended with had received complaints that that blockade, great mischief to the commerce and navi- which was very pernicious to commerce, gation of his majesty's subjects. He considering that there was a large quantity could assure their lordships, however, that of British capital in that country, was not almost from the beginning of that war, and an actual blockade, but only a paper one. ever since he had the honour to hold office, As soon as these complaints were received no endeavour on our part had been omitted in this country, he lost no time in having to produce peace, but on the contrary, those statements submitted to his majesty's efforts to obtain that object had been law officers, in order to procure their anxiously made with zeal and diligence, advice, as to whether or not the blockade both by his majesty's ministers at home, was effectnal, and in the event of its not and his envoys at Buenos Ayres and Rio. being found effectual, to provide that it Hitherto, unfortunately, those efforts had should no longer be considered so. The been without effect, but he could assure answer given by those whose opinion their lordships, that he was fully justified upon such a subject the government was in the hope which he held out on a former bound to consult had hitherto been, that occasion of the approaching reconciliation they were not in possession of such informof the parties. Of course it was impos- ation as would justify his majesty's sible for him to speak on a subject of this government in treating it as a paper nature with complete certainty; but he blockade. More information had since could say, that that hope, which had been produced, and had been submitted never been entirely extinguished, had been to the same authorities; and whenever the strongly revived by the last accounts blockade of Buenos Ayres should turn out which had been received from South to be not an efficient one, orders would be America. At the same time he wished to be given that it should no longer be respected. understood as making that statement with In the mean time, no endeavour was that caution with which all such statements wanting, either on the part of the minister ought to be made. He hoped that in a in this country or in South America, to short time peace would be concluded, and put an end to the warfare by amicable

1223 HOUSE OF COMMONS, Irish Parish Vestries Act.

1224 interference only, by suggesting the termssideration of that House the example of of peace, which terms, nevertheless, how the Hungarian Diet in 1791 ; a body ever wise they might be, we had no right which, like the parliament of England, to enforce.

was composed of men of different orders Lord Strangford thanked his noble friend in the community to the extent of five for the communication; and though he hundred or six hundred persons; and would think him very ungracious, he must who, at the time referred to, had passed say, that on one of the powers his noble friend a resolution, that the Protestants of that could not expect that his recommendations state should not contribute to the Cathowould have any effect. He happened to lic churches money or labour; por, on know, that many of the ministry of that the other hand, should the Catholics power had become partners in these priva- contribute money or labour to the Pro. teers; and they probably found them too testants, nor towards the establishment of lucrative to put an end to their occupation. their churches. They had an interest in keeping up the The Chancellor of the Exchequer conwar. He hoped his noble friend would demned, as highly inconvenient, the cusbear in mind, that of all the new States tom of discussing questions of great imof South America, only one had been of portance on the presentation of a petition. any service to England. Looking at their He defended the existing measure as being acts, and the facts connected with them, a great improvement on that which had from first to last, and seeing that they had preceded it. If persons were aggrieved by swindled us out of twenty-two millions, he assessments under the act, a remedy was must say, that if they were our creation, provided for them, since they had the we had no earthly reason to be proud of power to appeal. When he found that them.

those who complained, chose rather to

put their petition into the hands of the HOUSE OF COMMONS.

hon. gentleman than to seek for relief from Thursday, March 20.

the proper tribunal, he was inclined to

doubt the correctness of their representaIrish Parish VESTRIES Act.] Mr. tion. Hume, in presenting a petition from the Sir John Newport said, he was conCatholics of Ireland against this act, ob- vinced that the bill afforded the Catholics served, that it had affixed to it the names no protection, and gave, as a proof of the of peers,

merchants, and the leading correctness of his opinion, an instance in private Catholic gentlemen of Ireland; which, on a rate having been imposed by and although it had no more than five a Protestant bishop on the Catholic inthousand signatures, he had no doubt habitants of a parish for the supply of that it contained the sentiments of the some articles to a church, the Catholics whole Catholic population of that country appealed to the Quarter Sessions, and the upon this subject. He complained of the magistrates decided, that the act gave injustice of the Vestry acts, and recom- them no power to interfere with a rate so mended the House to take advantage of imposed. In some parts of Ireland, the the example held out to them by the Catholics were actually in such poverty, Hungarians, to whom the petition referred. that they could not afford to repair their The prayer of the petition was to beg the own chapels, and worshipped God almost attention of that House to this that in the open air. In one parish in the where those of the Catholic persuasion north, the Catholic chapel had been four formed seven eighths of the whole popu- times burnt down within twenty years; lation, as regarded the church, and ninety- the last time only five years ago; and nine in a hundred of the actual population while the Catholics were unable at present in many parts of the country, they were to rebuild that chapel, they were heavily justified in entreating the legislature to taxed for the erection of a Protestant re-consider the laws which authorized such church. The injustice of the present oppressions and exactions as those en- state of the law was therefore manifest. forced against them; they expressed their The Chancellor of the Exchequer bad obhope that the House would relieve them jected to this discussion, because it put a from the heavy charges to which they stop to what he considered more important were obliged, by the existing s, to sub- business. Now, he knew of no business mit; and they recommended to the con- that could be more important than listen

ing to the complaints of five or six mil- 1 hangings in the church. This sum, he conlions of people, of taxation without repre- tended, was not unreasonable, recollecting sentation. True it was, that the Secretary that Thurles was the residence of a great of State for the Home Department had pro- ecclesiastic, and that the church was the mised, with reference to the canons of the largest in the diocese. He also adverted church, that a notification should be sent to the situation of the parish of Clonolly,

a round to the different parishes of Ireland; and contended, that in all these cases the but he would take upon himself to assert, evil complained of had been greatly exagthat even since, and in more than one in- gerated, If the fact were as Mr. O'Connell stance, taxation had been enforced for stated, that this was the greatest practical articles not included in the canons of the grievance in Ireland, he congratulated church. In fact, the law, as it stood, that country on the little that it had to was no sufficient remedy; and the same endure. He also contended that much of species of taxation which took place the money raised, as appeared by the rebefore the act, had been persevered turns, was devoted to benevolent purposes ; in since it had passed. The whole was in some cases the Catholic schools were conducted in the most vague manner; supported, the Catholic chapels repaired, and, besides the articles specified, in some and the Catholic priests paid out of the instances 181. and 201. were charged under rates. On the whole, it amounted in most the head of contingencies; in fact, unex- instances to about 1}d. per Irish acre, plained contingencies formed one-fifth of which was the sum of Mr. O'Connell's the whole tax. He sincerely hoped, there- practical grievance. Were it not invidifore, that the act would be amended, and ous, he would ask, what proportion this that the bishops would be deprived of rate bore to the rent of the land in Ireland, the power of taxing parishes to any ex- for which twelve guineas, six guineas, and tent, and without any control. In his three guineas, per acre were paid ? In the opinion, some person should be made an- north of Ireland the amount of the rate swerable for the observance of due limits was so small that it could only be stated in taxation of this kind, and that person in decimals. He regretted that much of ought to be the incumbent of the parish. what had recently passed upon this sub

Sir R. Inglis admitted that there had ject had destroyed the harmony and good been irregularities and infractions of the feeling formerly prevailing between the law under the old system, but contended Protestant and Catholic clergy. The rethat they were not enough, either in kind sult of the whole of his inquiries was, that or degree, to warrant an enactment which a state of irritation had been produced would have been attended with greater which parliament might find it difficult to evils than those it proposed to remedy. allay. He complained that on occasions like the Mr. J. Grattan denied that any stockpresent, the right hon. baronet, and others stories had beer brought forward, or that who thought with him, brought forward a the Catholic Association had been guilty certain number of stock-stories, ready cut of quackery. The former collection and and dried, for the purpose of making out disposition of the rates were most discretheir case, and that the Catholic Associ- ditable to all parties concerned, and it was ation had done its utmost by its quackery highly important that the legislature should to aggravate and inflame a wound at first interfere to remedy the evil. The great of little importance. He then read a pas- objection was against the unwarrantable sage from a letter from Mr. O'Connell, and charges under the heads of “ Sundries an extract from one of his speeches, in the and Contingencies," in some parishes latter of which that gentleman insisted amounting to 201. or 301., without the that “the grievance of church rates was a specification of any particulars. grievance exceeded by no other that was his opinion, the evil could only effectfelt in Ireland.” The hon. baronet went ually be remedied by throwing open on to examine, in some detail, the extent the vestries, and admitting Roman Caof this grievance, and adverted to several tholics into them. He hoped the right distinct cases, as made out by the petitions bon. gentleman would take the subject and returns upon the table. The first was into his consideration; but if he would that of Drogheda, which he argued was not, he trusted the hon. member for Aberinapplicable; and the next was that of deen would bring in a bill to amend the Thurles, where 321. had been charged for existing act.

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In