SIR GEORGE GREY said, that the next Class of Estimates related to Educa MR. HENLEY said, the alteration would improve the clause. SIR GEORGE BOWYER asked how the householder was to convince the magistrate of the sincerity of his intention to alter his house? MR. ROEBUCK said, that he thought the Amendment sufficiently explicit, and he If there saw no difficulty in the matter. was no difference of opinion as to the bond fide intention of the proprietor to raise his house, the parties would not go before the magistrate; and if there was a doubt on the part of the company, what could be easier than for the householder to say, "I do intend to raise my house, and here are the builders whom I have employed to do it "? THE SOLICITOR GENERAL said, tion, and he thought it would be best to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for postpone these till another evening. House resumed. Resolutions to be reported To-morrow. Committee to sit again on Wednesday. TELEGRAPHS BILL-[BILL 75.] CONSIDERATION. Bill, as amended, considered. MR. HENLEY said, that under the nineteenth clause of the Bill a man would be obliged to apply to a justice if he wanted to have a telegraph wire passing over his house raised for the purpose of enabling him to increase the height of the building. That was a hardship. It ought to be sufficient for the proprietor of a house, who wished to exercise his common law right of improving his property, to serve notice on the company to which the wire belonged. MR. MILNER GIBSON said, that he had no intention to debar persons over whose houses a telegraph wire had been placed from raising their houses if they so pleased; but as the Bill was a sort of ex post facto legislation, by which they were lessening the powers already granted to telegraph companies, they were bound to protect them against harassing notices from persons who had no real intention to raise their houses. He thought that all objection would be removed by inserting the words "and in case of difference with Oxfordshire was in error if he supposed that there would be no obligation on the companies to raise their wire until the building was commenced. They would have to do it within fourteen days of the notice, unless they believed that there was no real intention on the part of the householder, and in that case they would have to go before a magistrate. An affidavit would satisfy the justice in an ordinary case, though, if there were reason, the justice might require further proof. SIR GEORGE BOWYER said, he wished to ask whether the householder would be subject to indictment if, after swearing to an affidavit of a bona fide intention, he happened to change his mind. MR. HUMBERSTON suggested that power should be given to enable the companies to recover the costs of raising and lowering the wires to their former position if the house was not raised. Clause amended, and agreed to. LORD ALFRED CHURCHILL said, he objected to an Amendment which had been made in the 23rd clause on a previous stage, on the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Henley). As the Bill originally stood, the owners or occupiers of houses of the annual value of £20 and upwards had power to object to posis being placed within a certain distance of their houses, and in Committee that limi tation was struck out, leaving to every householder the same power of objection. If unnecessary restrictions were imposed on - the companies they would defeat the object intended namely, that of giving cheap telegrams to the public. If the words were not re-inserted, no company would be able to work except such as obtained the sanction of railway and canal companies to lay down wires on their property. He should move to re-insert the words struck out. Another Amendment proposed, in page 9, line 22. after the words "dwellinghouse," to insert the words “of the annual value of twenty pounds or upwards.' Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted." SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, that the question of converting the large sums in savings banks into Government stock was fraught with many difficulties, and was likely to give rise to a system of finance of a very objectionable character. He therefore hoped that the Bill about to be brought in would receive the most serious consideration of the House. Resolution agreed to. Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. MASSEY, Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, and Mr. PEEL. SAVINGS BANKS BILL. sioners for the Reduction of the National Debt from the Trustees of Savings Banks, established under the enactments of the Act ninth George MR. HENLEY said, that having origiBill to make further provision for the investnally objected to the words in the Bill, hement of the Monies received by the Commisshould oppose their re-insertion. The House ought to take more care of those poorer classes who had no power to help themselves; and, if once they adopted such a principle, the House would find itself committed to a system of legislating in one manner for the poor and a different manner for the rich. the Fourth, chapter ninety-two, presented, and read 1o. [Bill 79.] SAVINGS BANKS ACTS AMENDMENT LEAVE. FIRST READING. MR. MILNER GIBSON said, that the words had been originally inserted in the clause in consequence of their having been wished to ask leave to bring in a Bill to SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, he adopted in the Act of last year, but he consolidate and amend the Laws relating to found it difficult to withstand the argu-Savings Banks. The provisions of the meaments of the right hon. Gentleman opposite when the matter was discussed in Committee, and he had therefore consented to their being struck out. He would ad- Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Bill to be read 3° on Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 78.] SAVINGS BANKS ACTS.-REPORT. Resolution reported, "That it is expedient to amend the Laws relating to the investment of the monies of Savings Banks, established under the Act 9 Geo. 4, c. 92, to create a charge for such Savings Banks upon the Consolidated Fund in place of certain perpetual Annuities now standing in the names of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt for such Savings Banks, to give powers for converting certain other amounts of such perpetual Annuities into certain other Annuities, and to provide for the due payment out of the Consolidated Fund of any deficiency which may arise from insufficiency of the securities to meet the legal claims of the Trustees of Buch Savings Banks." sure, which was in the nature of a Consolidation Bill and had been prepared with great care, in no way related to the large the funds of savings banks, but only to and difficult question of the conversion of the internal management of those institutions, and he believed it had the support of all parties interested in their manage ment. MR. ROEBUCK said, he would express a hope that in a subject of such importance care would be taken to print the Bill early, in order that hon. Members might fully understand its provisions before it came on for second reading. Motion agreed to. Bill to consolidate and amend the Laws relat ing to Savings Banks, ordered to be brought in by Sir HENRY WILLOUGHBY and Mr. AYRTON. Bill presented, and read 1°. [Bill 80.] House adjourned at a quarter after Six o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Tuesday, April 14, 1863. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading showed that the livings were properly Crown livings; for, if the Crown were trustee, then the livings must belong to it, otherwise there could be no trusteeship. When their Lordships considered that for merly the Great Seal used to be held by an ecclesiastic, who was the keeper of the King's conscience, they would not be surprised at the course which was usually pursued with respect to those livings. It could Third Reading-Post Office Savings Banks (No. be seen from the Rolls of Parliament five 47), and passed. AUGMENTATION OF BENEFICES SELECT COMMITTEE NOMINATED. On Order of the Day for the Nomination of the Select Committee on Augmentation of Benefices Bill, LORD ST. LEONARDS said, he wished to take that opportunity of making a few observations on the Bill of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. It was of great consequence, in every case in which an important Bill was to be referred to a Select Committee, that the principle of the measure should first be thoroughly discussed; because, when they got into Committee, they were always told that the principle of the Bill had already been approved of, and that all they had to do was to consider the Bill clause by clause. Now, there had been no discussion which would enable their Lordships to determine what principle should govern them in dealing with a measure of this sort, and yet this Bill was one which it was of the utmost importance should be considered most carefully. The Bll proposed to sell 320 livings with small incomes, which were in the patronage of the Lord Chancellor, in order that the price of those livings might augment their value. His noble and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor seemed to have been anxious to show their Lordships that those livings did not, properly speaking, belong to the Crown-or rather, as he said, speaking reverentially, that the Crown was, in some sense, to be considered as a trustee of those livings for the benefit of the Lord Chancellor, in whom the right of presentation was vested. But that very statement 1 centuries ago that even at that time it went beyond the memory of man to say when the right of the Lord Chancellor to present to those livings accrued, and how. It appeared from the Rolls of the 4th of Edward III. that the Bishop of Lincoln, who had lately died, had misapplied his patronage, and had appointed to the livings persons who were not intended by the Crown, under the original directions, to have those livings. The Council accordingly met, and advised that the Lord Chancellor should appoint to the livings under the ancient rules "Because it hath been ordained in times whereof there is no memory, and granted by the progenitors of our Lord the King, that the Chancellor for the time being should give the benefices which belong to the King to give." It appeared, therefore, that at that time it was considered that those benefices were, in point of fact, in the gift of the Crown. Those livings, therefore, did belong to the Crown as much as any other livings which might be in the patronage of the Prime Minister. A singular case in point was reported by Chief Justice Hobart as having occurred in the early part of the reign of James II. The Lord Chancellor of that day presented a person to a living, and this person had been inducted; but a mistake in the mode of presentation was afterwards discovered, and the Crown appointed another man. A question then arose, whether the nominee of the Crown or the nominee of the Lord Chancellor was the person properly appointed. The case went before the Lord Chief Justice, who reported it, and the Lord Chief Baron, and they were of opinion that the nominee of the Crown was not entitled, because the nominee of the Lord Chancellor had been inducted; and the grant having been made under the Great Seal, it was, in point of fact, a grant by the King himself, although it had been made by the Lord Chancellor. This was also shown by the fact that there was no difference in the form of presentation, whether it was by the King or the Lord Chancellor, saving, for the most part, one was mandantis and the other rogantis-not, however, the question by whom the pathe confusion of which words was of no tronage was to be given-the question was, moment. That the Lord Chancellor should how to enlarge the means of living of the have formerly appointed to those livings clergyman. Why should not the livings without taking the pleasure of the Crown in the gift of the Prime Minister be subwas not to be wondered at, when it jected to the same process? Why should was remembered that in early times the not the small livings in the gift of Deans Lord Chancellor was also a bishop and and Chapters and other corporate bodies the keeper of the King's conscience. be dealt with in the same way? Nor was With regard to the present Bill, he be there any reason why the right rev. Bench lieved the course taken was incorrect; should not give up their small livings. and if the Legislature passed the Bill, Was it right that the bishops should go and the Crown consented, that would on exercising their present patronage while cure any irregularity; but he believed, they were applauding the sacrifice made by strictly and correctly, it would be found the Lord Chancellor in giving up his small that the consent of the Crown should have livings? What would become, also, of been obtained before any Bill had been private patrons? He was anxious to know brought in which proposed to take away what the Government really meant to do any of the rights of the Crown. The prin- -were they prepared, like the Lord Chanciple of this Bill had been received with cellor, to sell the advowsons of the small universal approbation, and nobody approved livings in the gift of the Crown? He more than he did of increasing the value did not say that the augmentation of all of those small livings. But the question the small livings would not be beneficial ; was whether this was a proper measure but he wished their Lordships to consider for effecting that important object. While whether the consequences of this Bill would assenting to the principle of the Bill, he not be more momentous than some might maintained that it was only by a due under- anticipate.. There were 320 livings at this standing of its details that their Lordships moment in the rightful patronage of the could hope to carry the spirit of the mea- Lord Chancellor. If any one could be sure into effect. It was singular enough found to dispense that patronage in an to observe, that great as had been the ap- honest and earnest manner, it was the digprobation given to the principle of the Bill, nitary who might hold the Great Seal. no two persons were agreed as to the There was therefore no fear at present grounds of their approval. Some said the that the patronage was not properly dislivings were small, and were not worth pensed. The capital value of these advowhaving; others, that the Lord Chancellor sons amounted to several hundred thousand was not well qualified to find out the cha- pounds. The income of all these livings racters of the persons who might apply for in round numbers was £50,000 a year, the benefices. Now, it had always ap- which had been left by previous Kings of peared to him that it was a great advan- England to be doled out as an absolute tage that a large part of the ecclesiastical gift to the clergy. It was not a vast deal patronage of the country was not in the for each, but there were thousands of hands of the Episcopal Bench-it was clergymen who desired to possess these highly important that in a country like this livings. A clergyman often preferred to ecclesiastical promotion should not all pro- be Rector and Vicar, so that he could be ceed from the same source; and if it had master of his own parish, rather than not been for the Church patronage vested accept a curacy of greater value. A Lord in the Lord Chancellor, many valuable Chancellor was frequently asked to present clergymen would have failed of the ad- to a living, and was told that his refusal vancement they had obtained by that would prevent the union of two fond hearts, means. But could any one suppose that and that the whole future happiness of two those who were demanding great changes persons depended on the exercise of his of this character would be satisfied with patronage. At one fell swoop the Lord the present Bill? Would they not say, Chancellor was going to take the whole of why do you not give us in addition to the this £50,000 from the class on which this crumbs some of the large fat joints-the patronage had hitherto been bestowed, and pièces de résistance upon your table? Was to carry these livings into the market and it to be supposed that the Prime Minister sell them to the highest bidder. Those could, after this Bill became law, retain who bought these livings would sell them; the patronage of his small livings? It was, and thus this Bill, intended for the benefit of the Church, would bring into operation a second time, although the Bill was not a most objectionable description of specula actually in the hands of any of your tion-for many men would become buyers, Lordships. But I am bound to say that in the hope of getting more for a living the more I consider and examine the than they gave for it. The Lord Chancellor provisions of this Bill, the more appreprovided that these livings should not be hensive I am that the noble and learned re-sold within five years; but it would be Lord takes too sanguine a view of the impossible to prevent speculation and job- probable extent to which this Bill will be bery. The Bill provided that only half operative. I doubt very much whether it the money should be paid at the time of will always operate in the sense which is the purchase, and the other half when the intended; and, above all, I entertain very actual vacancy occurred. The result would considerable doubt whether it is a legitibe that poor curates would be urging their mate course, in favour of these livings, of friends to buy these livings, that subscrip- which it is proposed to divest the Lord tions would be made in some parishes for Chancellor, to make any deductions from this purpose, and that clergymen would in that limited fund known by the name of some cases incur debts from which they the Common Fund, which is applied to would never recover. Speculation there the augmentation of the poorest and most must be, and the Lord Chancellor would, distressed livings. At the time the second during the next fifteen or twenty years, be reading was moved we had only the very constantly engaged in selling these small clear statement of the noble and learned advowsons under circumstances of great Lord on the Woolsack, as to the objects anxiety. On a former occasion, in dealing which he proposed to accomplish, and the with the advowsons which belonged to intentions he meant to fulfil by this meamunicipal corporations, they devolved the sure; and it is no disparagement to the duty of selling them upon the Ecclesias- clearness of that statement, or, I hope, to tical Commissioners; but in this case the the quickness of your Lordships' appreLord Chancellor would have the biddings hension, to say that it involved many inmade to him, and make regulations which tricacies and nice calculations which it might damage the sale. It had not been was not easy at the moment to follow. explained what was to be done with those Into the details of the scheme I do not livings that became vacant, between the pretend, at the present moment, to enter; time of their becoming vacant and of find- but I wish to call attention to some of ing a purchaser. The noble Lord dealt the principal features of the Bill, which, with existing laws in a manner which was as I said, seem to me open to grave obquite unparalleled, for he not only imposed jections. And first, with regard to the on the Ecclesiastical Commissioners the application, for the purposes of this Bill, of duty of endowing these livings with a sum a portion of the Common Fund at the disequal to the moiety of the purchase money, posal of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. but notwithstanding that the law made it If I am not using too strong an expression, simony to deal with the sale of advowsons, the vice of this measure is that it takes he actually authorized the sale of these into consideration only the absolute pay320 small livings. He should not offer ment to the clergyman, and does not take any opposition to the appointment of a into account the relative value of the payCommittee, but he had made the remarks ment, and the responsibility and labour he had offered to the House because he imposed on the incumbent. It does not conceived that the subject required the draw the slightest distinction between a most serious attention of their Lordships' living of £100 a year, with a population House. of fifty, and another living of £100 a. year, where the population numbers 5,000 or 6,000. Your Lordships may recollect that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners are bound, and are endeavouring to perform their duty by gradually raising the livings of smallest amount, and at the same time with the largest populations. I think I have heard it stated, that in the course of the present year, or, at all events, in a short time, they hope to raise to the amount of £300 all the livings in the THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I wish to take this opportunity of suggesting some doubts which have occurred to my mind since the Bill was read a second time. I concurred so fully in the general approval of the Bill by your Lordships' House, and in the general principle of augmenting the value of small livings by the interposition of private patronage, that I felt myself precluded from offering any objection to the Bill when it was read |