reconcile conflicting interests. The Government hoped to have the Bill ready this week; and, if not, that it would be brought in and printed next week; but it would be rash in him to give a positive pledge on the subject. They were preparing its clauses under the best legal advice, and did not need any spurring. hon. and learned Member who had charge of this Bill (Mr. M'Mahon) would consent to postpone it, because it was well known that the Government, at the instance of several Irish Members, were engaged in drawing up a Bill which would, he hoped, meet the views of all parties. MR. M.MAHON said, he had already postponed this Bill from time to time; and if the Government would undertake to bring in their measure within a reasonable time, he would not stand in the way. Would there be any objection to going on with a few clauses, so that the House might consider both Bills together when the Government measure came before it ? SIR ROBERT PEEL said, that at the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Limerick, the noble Lord the Member for Cockermouth (Lord Naas) and the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Menber for Kerry (Mr. Herbert) had conferred with his hon. Friend the Under Secretary of State, the hon. Gentleman the Member for Mallow (Mr. Longfield), and other Members, upon this question. It was then distinctly and clearly agreed that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Wexford should not proceed further with his Bill at present, every credit at the same time being given to him for his efforts in drawing attention to this important national question. The Home Secretary had now taken a personal interest in the matter; on the part of the Government, he would therefore undertake that the Bill should be introduced before the 3rd of June, and he trusted that before the end of August it would be passed. MAJOR GAVIN said, that neither he nor his right hon. Colleague knew anything of the conference or understanding referred to by the right hon. Baronet. Possibly it was the hon. and gallant Member for the county of Limerick (Mr. Monsell) to whom the Chief Secretary intended to allude. As the Government Bill was not to be introduced till such a distant date, he hoped the hon. and learned Member for Wexford would press forward his measure. LORD NAAS thought the assurance of the Government satisfactory, and that the hon. and learned Member for Wexford ought not to proceed further at present. MR. LONGFIELD said, the compromise was agreed to upon the distinct understanding that the Government Bill should be introduced without delay. SIR ROBERT PEEL said, it was necessarily a matter of considerable difficulty to SIR HERVEY BRUCE complained that none of those whose interests were affected had been consulted by the Government. MAJOR GAVIN said, his anxiety for legislation of some kind arose from the sufferings entailed on fishermen and their families by the illegal increase of stake and bag nets. It would have been but common courtesy to those acting with the hon. Member for Wexford to give them notice of the conference. SIR WILLIAM SOMERVILLE said, he thought it would be reasonable to defer the further stages of the present Bill to the latter end of next week, on the understanding that the Government measure would be introduced in the mean time. He thought it very likely that their Bill would not prove satisfactory, as every compromise on this question must entail a sacrifice of public rights. MR. M MAHON said, he would postpone the consideration of the clauses until Monday next; but unless the measure of the Chief Secretary was then before the House, he should put down his Bill every night. House resumed. Committee report Progress; to sit again on Monday next. House adjourned at half after One o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Tuesday, May 5, 1863. MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS-First ReadingExchequer Bonds (£1,000,000); Consolidated Fund (£20,000,000); Marriages, &c. (Ireland) (No. 93). Report-Augmentation of Benefices [H.L.] (No. 59) [Report of Select Committee, Parl. P. No. 91; Bill, as amended, No. 92]; Vice-Admiralty Courts (No. 79). MAIL SERVICE BETWEEN DOVER, LORD CHELMSFORD asked the Postmaster General, Whether Her Majesty's Government have accepted a Tender from contract, had been borne by the Governthe Belgian Government for the Convey-ment. He would not enter into the quesance of the English Mails between Dover tion of the validity of that contract of 1859. and Ostend; and whether they contem- as it might possibly become the subject of plate any Alteration in the Mail Packet investigation in a court of law; but he Service between Dover and Calais; and might observe that the Government which whether any Failure in the Performance succeeded that of his noble Friend recogof the existing Contract between Her nised the contract as a valid and subsisting Majesty's Government and Mr. Joseph contract. For instance, the Admiralty George Churchward for the Mail Ser-informed the Superintendent at Dover that vices between Dover and Calais and Os- the contract of 1855 had been cancelled, tend respectively has occurred to render and instructed him to watch over the due any Change necessary? Up to the year performance of the contract of the 26th of 1854, these services were conducted by the April 1859. Again, on the 1st of July Board of Admiralty in Government vessels. 1859, Mr. Churchward sent in a bill to the It then occurred to Mr. Churchward-a Admiralty for two months' subsidy, at the gentleman whose name was now familiar increased rate of £18,000 per annum, and to their Lordships-that it would not im- there was not only no objection made to pair the efficiency, and would contribute to the payment of that amount, but Mr. economy, if the services were committed Churchward having claimed the subsidy to private enterprise. Mr. Churchward from the 1st of May, the Admiralty consubmitted his views to the Admiralty, by siderately pointed out to him that as his whom they were favourably entertained; contract commenced on the 26th of April but nothing was done until a Select Com- he was entitled to four days more, and they mittee of the House of Commons reported | added £23 to his claim. A subsequent in favour of the service being conducted by claim was sent in by Mr. Churchward for private parties; and in 1854 Mr. Church- the payment of certain harbour dues, and ward entered into a contract with the Ad- the Admiralty reminded him that he had miralty for the services between Dover and contracted to pay all such charges himself. Ostend, and Dover and Calais, for the sum In a subsequent account he had charged of £15,000 a year. The advantages of for an extra boat for the India mail on the this contract were great. There was a very day that the contract commenced, and considerable saving to the country, and the Admiralty held that the old contract the work was efficiently performed. In terminated on the 25th of April. But that the following year, 1855, an application was not all. A lease was executed by two was made by Mr. Churchward for an ex- Lords of the Admiralty of certain premises tension of the contract, and the Admiralty at Dover which were necessary for Mr. granted a further extension of four years, Churchward to occupy in order to perform which time would expire in June next. In his contract. That lease would expire in the year 1859, under the Government of 1870, and that lease recited the contract Lord Derby, an application for a further of 1859, which was in fact the foundation extension of the contract was made by Mr. of the lease. Under these circumstances, Churchward. At that time, as at the pre- Mr. Churchward was struck with some sent moment, Mr. Churchward held a con- surprise about six months afterwards on tract with the French Government for the being informed that the Government repu conveyance of their mails from Calais to diated the contract of 1859, and intended Dover, which, of course, afforded him great to adhere to the contract of 1855. They subfacilities for carrying out his contract with sequently gave him notice that they conour Government. The same considerations sidered he was acting under the contract which guided the Government in 1855 in- of 1855, and that consequently his enduced the Government of Lord Derby to gagement would terminate in the month extend the contract to the year 1870; and of June next. The validity of the conaccordingly, on the 26th of April 1859, tract probably would be tried in the proa fresh contract was entered into with Mr. per court; but he was anxious to know Churchward, by which he was to carry on how the future services between Dover the whole service until the year 1870, at and Ostend and Dover and Calais were the increased rate of £18,000 per annum; to be provided for. He learnt, from what the addition being a commutation of all had passed in another place, that the Goextra and special services, and for harbour vernment had accepted a tender from the and other dues, which, under the previous Belgian Government for the service be LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY said, that to the earlier observations of the noble and learned Lord he should make no answer; because, as the noble and learned Lord himself had remarked, the matter would probably become the subject of legal But with regard to the spe tween Dover and Ostend. He wished to ward. He asked, then, whether it was know from the Postmaster General if that true that there had been a tender of the contract had been completed. If so, it Belgian Government as to the service bewould give the Belgian Government a right tween Dover and Ostend; and if so, on to exact performance from our Govern- what terms? Whether that tender had ment. But the contract could not be been ratified by the Belgian Chambers? carried out unless it was ratified by the Whether it was in contemplation to interBelgian Chamber. The Chambers were fere with the service between Dover and still sitting; but there would very soon be Calais ? And whether there had been an adjournment, if not a dissolution, and any failure on the part of Mr. Churchthey would not assemble again until No-ward to carry on the contract which he vember next. What provision had been had so long performed with entire satismade for the time when the Government faction. said the contract with Mr. Churchward would end-that was in June-up to November, which would be the earliest period at which the ratification of the contract by the Belgian Chambers could take place ? It was not unlikely that there would be a change of Ministers in Bel-investigation. gium, and possibly the Chambers would refuse the ratification. He had been told that the tender of the Belgian Government was for as low a figure as £4,000 a year; and therefore it was quite impossible that they would be able to conduct the service except at a very great annual loss. At present he was told that they had half the day and half the night service, and they were losing very considerably by that. They had not got a boat them selves, and they were obliged to hire boats from the South Eastern Company at £350 a month, including seamen's wages, making £4,000 a year. If they were to have six additional services to perform, of course they would require additional boats, which would require an outlay of about £40.000. He doubted whether the Belgian Chambers would be disposed to ratify a contract which was likely to be attended with such prejudicial circumstances. He had been informed, but he could hardly believe the statement, that in order to carry out this Belgian arrangement, it was in contemplation to reduce the services between Dover and Calais. He hoped this was not the case, for he was quite sure that it would produce the greatest possible dissatisfaction and the greatest inconvenience. He would ask if such an arrangement was in contemplation. He would also ask whether there had been would stand on the same conditions as anything in the manner in which Mr. Churchward had performed his contract which had induced the Government to take this course. All the predecessors of the noble Lord the Postmaster General had expressed themselves satisfied with the performance of his contract by Mr. Church cific Questions that had been put to him, he would say that, as to the service between Dover and Ostend, a conditional engagement had been entered into between the Belgian Government and the English Government for the performance of the mail packet service at a considerably reduced rate. The arrangement was a conditional one, the condition being that the English Parliament should not find the money for the continuance of the contract with Mr. Churchward. If Parliament should find the money to continue that contract, Mr. Churchward would continue the service as at present. If, on the other hand, Parliament should not find the money, then the Belgian Government would be bound by their contract, and would undertake the duty; and there was no reason to suppose it would not be done in a satisfactory and efficient manner. As to its involving a loss to the Belgian Government, with that the British Government had nothing at all to do. All that they had to do was to see that the service was properly performed. With regard to the mail packet service between Dover and Calais, an offer had been made to the English Government to perform it at a lower rate than was at present paid; and the negotiations were still proceeding with the parties who made the tender. If an agreement were come to, it the Belgian arrangement—namely, it would be conditional on Parliament not finding the money to carry on the contract with Mr. Churchward. The last question was, whether there was reason to complain of the manner in which Mr. Churchward had carried out his contract? He was happy to say, in confirmation of what had been stated by the noble and learned Lord, that it was not on account of any inefficiency or from anything unsatisfactory in the performance of the service that notice had been given to Mr. Churchward of the termination of his contract with the Government. That notice was given in consequence of the course taken by the other House of Parliament (of which the noble and learned Lord was no doubt cognizant) on the Report of a Committee condemning the conduct of Mr. Churchward, and expressing an opinion that ally on the British Parliament not voting the money. THE EARL OF DERBY asked, whether the sum to be proposed for Mr. Churchward's contract had been inserted in the Estimates to be submitted to Parliament ? He asked the question, as Parliament would otherwise have no power to vote the money. LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY said, the money was not in the Estimates, but it was competent for any Member of Parliament to raise the question again, as it had been raised by Captain Vernon, and Parliament would decide the point. THE EARL OF DERBY said, it was not competent for any but a responsible Member of the Government to propose a vote of money for such a purpose, and then it must appear on the Estimates. Therefore, it was idle to say it was left to the option of Parliament whether Mr. Churchward's contract should be carried out or not. REFORMATORY IN CHARNWOOD FO- "It would be impossible for the House of Commons, with due regard to its honour and dignity, to vote the sums of money necessary to fulfil the agreement." [See 3 Hansard, clvii. 1331.] Upon that Report, a friend of Mr. Churchward, Captain Vernon, raised a specific Motion, challenging the opinion of the Commons, and proposed a Resolution that the contract should be carried out. That Motion was discussed for a considerable time, and by a majority of forty it was de cided that it would not be consistent with OUTBREAK IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC the honour and dignity of the House to vote the money to carry the contract into effect. The Government, therefore, had every reason to believe, after that expression of opinion from the House of Commons, that it would be impossible to carry out the contract with Mr. Churchward, and that if they did not take the steps they had taken of inviting tenders for a contract for the service from other parties, they might, after 1863, be left without any means of continuing the service. For those reasons the Government had taken the steps they had taken; and he trusted that, instead of producing inconvenience, their course would be productive of advantage. LORD BERNERS inquired, Whether Her Majesty's Government have already or will institute Inquiries into the Circumstances of the late mutinous Outbreak in the Roman Catholic Reformatory in Charnwood Forest, the Constitution of Appointment and Pay of Officers of that Institution, and the Discipline exercised therein? In Charnwood Forest there was a monastery of St. Bernard for monks of the Cistercian and Trappist orders. A few years ago the Rev. Dr. Burden formed the benevolent determination of grafting upon the austere discipline of the Trappists a reformatory LORD CHELMSFORD said, the noble institution for young men. In May 1856 Lord had not answered the question, whe--the institution having increased to large ther the contract had been ratified by the dimensions-it received a certificate from Belgian Chambers; and, if not, what pro- the Secretary of State authorizing it to vision had been made in the event of the become a reformatory for juvenile offenders Chambers being dissolved without the rati- to the number of 300. From the first refication being completed, and not re-as- port of the Inspectors of Prisons with re1 sembling till November next-he meant, gard to this institution, it appeared that supposing the British Parliament did not the cost of the establishment was £5,337, vote the money to carry on Mr. Church- or about £14 18s. 6d. per head. During ward's contract? the next three years the Government LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY said, allowances amounted to £13,757. He there was no reason to expect that the was desirous, then, of inquiring what conBelgian Chambers would rise before this trol the Government had over the expendiquestion had been disposed of. The Bel- ture, what control they had over the apgian Government had given a positive en-pointments of that establishment, what congagement that they would undertake the trol they had over its discipline. He would contract, and we had accepted it condition- contrast the management and result of this 46 EARL GRANVILLE replied, that the Secretary of State had not yet received the report of the Inspector of Prisons sent down to investigate the case, and that therefore it was impossible for the Government at present to answer the inquiry. In another month the Government might be able to give the information. House adjourned at Six o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock. reformatory with the management and re- | struck him on the arms and the head, and, sult of the Protestant reformatories, which in fact, half murdered him. When he were presided over in many cases by Mem- afterwards went bleeding into the director's bers of their Lordships' House, associated room to have his head bandaged up, he with the magistrates, clergy, and other asked the director why he had not come benevolent persons, and which had pro- to his assistance, and the answer of Father duced very satisfactory results. In subse- Robert was, that "it was contrary to his quent reports of the Inspectors of Prisons position as a priest and a religious to it was stated that this establishment had fight with boys." The noble Lord then encountered serious difficulties, owing to the read from a newspaper the depositions misconduct and the inefficiency of several taken before the magistrates in reference of the officers charged with the moral and to this outbreak, where four of the ringleadindustrious training of the boys; and this ers were committed for trial; and concluded comparison was drawn-that whereas in by putting his Question. reformatories 65 per cent of Protestants were doing well, there were only 49 per cent of Roman Catholics; of re-committals, Protestants 10.6 per cent, Roman Catholice 11.5 per cent; cases of failure, Protestants nearly 7 per cent. Roman Catholics 12 per cent. He might here state that, in proportion to the population of the British islands, the Roman Catholic criminals were double the number of the Protestant. Another Report stated that the general condition of the reformatories was satisfactory, the only exception, in fact, being that of St. Bernard's. In another Report this reformatory was spoken of as the mismanaged reformatory." The outbreak at St. Bernards, to which his question referred, was thus given in a local newspaper. It appeared that the Rev. Robert Smith, known as Father Robert, director of the establishment, having found some of the inmates smoking, told them they were not allowed to smoke; and that one of the number replying that he could not do without his pipe, Father Robert said to them" Men, if you must smoke, do it privately; do it out of sight." Afterwards some of the boys were seen by one of the officers smoking, and on his attempting to take their pipes away, they knocked him down, and knocked his teeth out of his head and otherwise injured him. This was reported to the director of the reformatory, and Father Robert, taking with him four assistants, thereupon proceeded towards a dormitory where nearly forty of the boys had been breaking up their iron bedsteads. Leaving the assistants at the bottom of the stairs, he went into the room with a policeman named Chaloner and called out some of the ringleaders. Thereupon they jumped out of their beds with their clothes on, and, armed with broken bed-legs, four of them at once attacked the policeman, who called loudly for assistance, but none came -the director had gone down stairs-they HOUSE OF COMMONS, Richard MINUTES.]-NEW MEMBER SWORN- First Reading-Act of Uniformity Amendment Revenue [Bill 91]; Savings Banks Monies [Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer] [Bill 79]. Withdrawn-Writs Prohibition (No. 2) [Bill 62]. THE ATTACK ON SHON-HING. QUESTION. COLONEL SYKES said, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, If any and what measures are to be adopted consequent upon Captain R. Dew, of ler Majesty's ship Encounter, employing part of the Naval force under his command in an unsuccessful attack upon the |