Besides the above petitions, there was one prefented from the voters of Radnor, which was in courfe referred to be heard according to the order of December 6, when the faid borough was drawn for Tuesday Feb. 7.

When the petition for Dumferline was brought in, Col. Archibald Campbell (who is the fitting Member) informed the House, that he chearfully fubmitted his cause to the determination of the Committee. Mr. Medley, (Member for Seaford) likewife rofe, and endeavoured in fome measure to answer the charge of the petitioners: He was extremely jocular upon his opponents (Mr. Chetwood and Mr. Sayre) and obferved, that the House would fuftain a very great lofs in the want of fuch able orators and financiers.

In a Committee of the whole Houfe, refolved, that a fupply be granted to his Majefty.

DECEMBER 9.

This day there was very little business done, the House not sitting above three quarters of an hour. The refolution. which the Committee of Supply came to yesterday was reported and agreed to: and the Committee ordered to fit again on Monday.

Refolved on Mr. Cooper's motion, that

an humble Addrefs might be prefented fo his Majefty, that his Majefty would be pleafed to give the proper Officers directions to lay before this Houfe the following estimates for the fervice of the year 1775; and that the fame might be referred to the faid Committee.

The ordinary estimate for his Majefty's navy, for the year 1775; and alfo,

An estimate of the charge of what may be neceffary for the buildings, rebuildings, and repairs of fhips of war in his Majefty's yards, and other extra works, over and above what is proposed to be done, under the heads of wear and tear, and ordinary, in the year 1775.

An estimate of the charge for guards, garrifons, and other land forces, for the year 1775.

An estimate of the charge of the Office of Ordnance for the land fervice, for the year 1775.

A lift of the regimental and warrant Officers of his Majefty's land forces, and of fuch of the Officers of marines as were reduced before the last war, who are to be on half-pay, for the year 1775. An account of fervices incurred, and not provided for by Parliament.

And, an account, fhewing the monies arifen within the refpective half-years, ending the 5th of April 1774, and the 10th of October following, out of the aggregate, South-Sea, and general, commonly called the Sinking-Fund.

As foon as the Houfe had come to these feveral refolutions, Lord Howe acquainted the Houfe, that the Navy efti mates would be referred to the Committee of Supply on Monday; and then taken into confideration.

Such Gentlemen as had petitions to prefent, delivered them to the Clerk, and they were drawn out of the glafs in the following order: Malden, Carnarvonshire, Totnefs, Dyfart, &c.

Tuef. May 16: Friday,

19.

Tuesday,

236

Friday, 26.

The House rofe at three o'clock, and adjourned to Monday.

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proof of the juft light the public held Mr. Grenville's act in that it was always cuftomary, when a new court of judicature was erected, that a number of caufes came to be tried before it; that he had no right to believe that of the peany tions were frivolous or vexatious, yet if they were, when they came to be tried, he hoped they would be treated as fuch.

A propofition was now fubmitted to the Houfe, by Mr. T. Townsend, relative to opening the doors to the Members of the other Houfe. This produced a converfation (for there was no queftion before the House) which continued above an hour.

Mr. T. Townsend faid, that he did not mean to urge his propofition by way of motion, or question, but barely to collect the general fenfe which he flattered himself they would entertain of it. He faid that no man who had the least recollection of the very indecent conduct of the Houfe of Peers, relative to their fhutting their doors against the Commons, could be fuppofed ever to forget the unprovoked indignity then put on this Houfe, or fufpect him to be the first that would propofe an improper conceffion. But as most of the great national bufinefs originated, and was tranfacted in the Houfe of Commons; as there were many young Lords, who, by the order for excluding the Peers, were deprived of thofe grand fources of information to be had within thofe walls; as from the nature of conducting business in the other House, little knowledge could be obtained; as matters of the first confequence to the welfare of thefe kingdoms would fhortly come under difcuffion, he fubmitted it to the Houfe, if the order of a rigid exclusion, made at the time he now hinted at, in a fpirit of heat and refentment, might not be relaxed, to reach fo far, at least, as a connivance, He obferved, if the Peers had behaved ill, if they had acted imprudently, nay indecently, the Commons had now a fair opportunity of taking the higher ground, of acting with temper, with moderation, and like gentlemen. And concluded with faying, that a great number of the younger part of the other Houfe had already manifefted a strong inclination to make reparation for the former misbehaviour of their body; and, in fine, faid he, the act was more the act of a few individuals than of the whole House.

Mr. Rice rofe next, and was very warmly fevere on the conduct of the Peers. He owned that the Commons, it

was true, had the advantage of now chufing the higher ground, but contended ftrenuously, that as the Peers were the aggreffors, they fhould firft certainly concede; and that, for his part, till that event took place, he should steadfastly continue to be against the leaft relaxation on their part. He said, he was himself a witness to the fhameful, the scandalous outrage committed on the representative body of the British nation; and it was impoffible he could ever forget the feveral aggravating circumstances which accompanied it. That the reafons urged now, by the Hon. Gentleman who moved in this business, were just, and struck him at the time; but that what might have been then extremely proper, would at this time be extremely improper, confidering the difpofition the Peers had fhewn on a recent occafion, when they had an opportunity to make a fuitable reparation to this Houfe, which they had fo groffly infulted and offended, without any colour of provocation whatever.

Mr. Hans Stanley denied, in general terms, that the Commons had any right to complain, as they had no bufinefs in the other Houfe. He infifted that the propofed connivance would answer no fort of purpofe; for that whatever the general fenfe of the Houfe might be, there were many Members, who, if they faw a Peer in the Houfe, would inftantly move for having him turned out. Here he digreffed on the impropriety of permitting ftrangers of any denomination into the gallery; faid it was difagreeable to be obliged to move for having the House cleared; that therefore, in his opinion, it would be better to prevent fuch an inconvenience, by having the ftanding order enforced more strictly, and thereby avoid difappointing thofe, who perhaps wait out of curiofity or entertainment from twelve o'clock. Whether fuch a regulation would admit of any exceptions, relative to perfons who had any real business to tranfact, he would not determine. His fpeech did not feem to be relifhed in any quarter of the House.

Col. Barré faid, he had been told that in the latter end of the reign of George the first, or beginning of the reign of George the fecond, a like affair happened, both Houfes fhut the doors against against each other, and that John Duke of Argyle gave it as his opinion, that the Peers of the land, by their birth ́ and education, ought to be more polite and have better manners than the Commons, therefore it was expedient in them to

fet

fet the Commons an example, and open. their doors.

Mr. Burke faid he by no means agreed with the Duke of Argyle that the Peers of the realm had more manners than the Commons, for in general their rank made them proud and faucy; that Commoners were remarkable for their civility, for it was civility that gained them their feats; they were obliged not only to be civil to their conftituents, but their conftituents wives and children. He then argued with great force of reasoning in favour of opening the doors of both Houfes on the principle of duty, declaring that if he could do his duty completely without, he would never defire to enter the doors of the House of Peers; but he was very well convinced, that upon certain occafions it was abfolutely neceffary the Members fhould have free access to their respective Houses; that a great commercial bill, the importation of provifions from Ireland, would probably have been loft if he had not had accefs to the House of Peers to explain the principles on which that bill went; and that if the doors of that Houfe had not been fhut against the Lords laft feffions, the bill for the fecurity of Literary Property would never have been rejected with contempt after it had paffed the Houfe of Commons; for if the young Peers had come down and heard the arguments on it, it would have met with a different fate.

On the whole it feemed to be lamented that any difference had arifen to occafion fuch an improper ftep; but nothing was done; for the queftion being moved that the Houfe do go into a Committee of Supply, it was carried in the affirmative. The order of the day w was now called for, for the Houfe to refolve itself into a Committee of Supply to his Majesty; the Speaker accordingly left the Chair, and Sir Charles Whitworth being feated, Mr. Buller moved, "that it, is the opinion of this Committee, that 16,000 feamen, including 4284 marines, be granted for the year 1775."

He prefaced his motion with fetting forth, that Admiral Harland was daily expected home from the Eaft Indies, with three fail of the line, and by that means 16,000 would be fufficient, which was 4000 lefs than last year.

Mr. T. Townfend defired to know why 20,000 was neceffary laft year, and 16,000 would do this, and what quantity were neceffary to be fent to America, and what proportion left to guard us at home.

Mr. Buller attempted to folve Mr. Townsend's questions; he read an extract of a letter from Admiral Amherst, commander at Plymouth, informing them that they had feveral fupernumerary feamen, and that their guardships were full; that the number of hips at America were three third-rates, one fourth-rate, fix fixrates, feven fchooners, and two armed veffels; the number of feamen 2835.

Mr. Luttrell arofe, and faid he was much furprized to hear the Hon Gentleman mention the state of our feamen in fuch a manner; that, had he been ap prized of the business coming on that day, he would have prepared himself to have anfwered him more fully; yet he was fo much a judge of maritime affairs as to know it was impoffible that the ships or feamen the Hon. Gentleman had mentioned to be in America could be there for fome months, for fhips that went out at this feafon were prevented by winds: and weather, fo that they were obliged to go to the Welt-Indies or put back, and could not arrive in America still the fpring that he should be glad to be informed whether or not the feamen fent in the fleet to America were taken out of the guardships here, which confequently weakened our ftrength at home, and left us almost defencelefs; and whether the Admiral's account of the full complement of men did not include those drafted off to other fhips, and fent, to America, which might be fet down as lent, but were abfolutely loft, as a defence to this country, until they returned.

Col. Barré faid, he had been informed, that unlefs Admiral Harland arrived in ten days, it would be impoffible for him to arrive in less than four months, therefore the number of feamen expected from his coming home was very precarious, and not to be depended on.

Mr. Hartley next defired to know the number of thips that were on the American station before the prefent difturbance.

Mr. Buller anfwered, one fourth-rate, fix fix-rates, feven fchooners, and two armed veffels, and about 1900 men.

Col. Barré then defired to know what force we have at home to defend us against any attack of an enemy.

Mr. Buller replied, 5900 men in the guardships, and 1168 men in the other on the British and Irish coafts.

hips

Mr. Buller's partizans finding him hard preffed for further explanation, immediately adverted to "The Question! The Question!" which put an end to the bufinets; the Chairman then put the

queftion

queftion, that it is the opinion of this Committee that 16,000 feamen, including 4284 marines, be granted for the year 1775, which was carried.

DECEMBER 13.

Sir Charles Whitworth, from the Committee of Supply, reported the two refolutions of Monday, which were agreed to without oppofition.

Mr. Rofe Fuller moved to have the refolution of the 5th of May, 1774, read, which being accordingly complied with, he observed, that it appeared at that time to the Houfe, that there were several large counties, where it was extremely inconvenient for the freeholders to attend at an election for Members to ferve in Parliament. He begged, therefore, to acquaint them with what came within his own knowledge. He faid, he refided in a county (Suflex) where he was eighty miles from the place of election, and that there were feveral freeholders who lived above a hundred miles off, and were obliged to go to give their fuffrages at the expence of 41. each; which he looked upon as no lefs troublesome than expenfive. He then moved that leave might be given to bring in a bill, according to the refolution of the House of the 5th of May 1774, which was agreed to, and Mr. Fuller, Mr. Cornwall, Mr. Jenkinfon, Mr. Grey Cooper, and Lord George Germaine, were ordered to prepare and bring in the fame.

Juft as the Houfe was preparing to rife, Lord John Cavendish, by way of information, defired to know the meaning that the King's fpeech proclaimed the neceffity of certain measures to be purfued towards our Colonies in America, and yet the naval establishment was lower by 4000. men than the last year. He faid, the Houfe had no authentic information on what motives this naval arrangement was made; he should be therefore glad to have those feeming contradictions reconciled, He added, that the thinness of the House prevented him from framing any motion; but he could not, nevertheless, avoid obferving, that he feared Adminiftration, by fixing the naval eftablishment fo low, meant to make calls of a very difagreeble and expenfive nature on the Houfe, in the future progrefs of the American affairs.

Lord Beauchamp answered Lord John, and faid, that the latter having communicated to him, that morning his intention of fuggefting his ideas to the House, he had accordingly imparted them to the noble Lord who prefides at the head of

the Treafury, who is indifpofed, and who informed him, that Adminiftration had no particular information to lay before the House at present.

Mr. Cornwall next rofe, and endeavoured to apologize for the Minister's conduct. He infifted, that the present was not a proper time to enter into any dif cuffion relative to American affairs; that the naval reduction, he presumed, was founded on good and fubftantial reasons; that however, the motives which gave birth to them might vary with the cir- . cumstances; and, that when the question concerning Great Britain and the Colonies came in a Parliamentary way before the House, every Member would then be fully at liberty to deliver his fentiments and maintain his opinions.

Mr. Burke answered the two Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench in a very masterly manner, and was extremely fevere on the conduct of Administration. Among a variety of other things, he compared the Houfe of Commons to a dead, fenfelefs mafs, which had neither fenfe, foul, or activity, but as it derived them from the Minister. If his Lordship chufes to tell them one day, that America is in a state little fhort of actual rebellion, it is all very well; if in a few days after he acquaints that at second hand, that he had no information whatever to authorize fuch an affertion, who can doubt his candour and his veracity? Both affertions ftill remain uncontradicted, and all muft be filence. A few days fince it was indecent to call for papers, because they could be had; to look for them now would be improper, because they cannot be had. That however abfurd it might feem, fuch a conduct was nevertheless founded in fyftem; for if matters turned out well, the merit would be imputed to the Minifter; whereas if they should be attended with mifcarriage or misfortune, it is no more than applying to Parliament, and every thing will be set to rights; that is, we defpife the Parliament, who are our only proper and conftitutional counfellors; but when we have blundered and ruined our affairs, perhaps beyond a poffibility of redrefs, then we will come to Parliament---to do what?--to remedy what is incurable, and to recover what can never be regained. It is an old device, though methinks not a very wife one (fays he) to trust to the chapter of accidents. This valuable chapter counfels you to truft to accidents, because accidents are fometimes productive of good fortune.

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