1786. Irish Parliamentary Intelligence. Proceedings in the Irifb Parliament, on the Pros G (Continued from p. 494-) ENERAL LUTTRELL. If, Sir, your orders were properly enforced, fuch an amendment as the prefent would be unneceffary; but even at prefent I think it will have an effect different from what the honourable gentleman intends. It defires every man, as he tenders the conftitutional and commercial rights of Ireland, to attend that is the condition; but if any man does not tender the conftitution and commerce of Ireland, he is not called upon to attend. I think that if your order was enforced by the ufual pecuniary penalty confequent to a member's being ordered into cuftody of the Ser. jeant at Arms, it would have a much better effect than mere words can have, let them be ever so strong. Mr. Forbes. If there are any gentlemen who do not tender the conftitution and commerce of Ireland, I hope they will not attend-however, I fhall not follow the honourable gentleman through his ingenious argument; he has at all times too much wit for me-but if fuch an a mendment as I now propofe was admitted under the government of a perfon who is ftigmatifed with fetting at nought chartered rights, certainly the prefent immaculate miniftry will not oppofe it; and let the propofitions come forward in the nioft unquestionable manner they may, they fill tender the conftitutional and commercial rights of Ireland. Mr. Attorney General, I fhall oppofe this motion, as conveying an idea that the commercial or conftitutional rights of Ireland are invaded, which is in no wife the cafe; and fo well I know the Duke of Rutland, that I will freely declare it never can be the cafe during his adminiftration: But I fubmit to gentlemen, whe ther, in a bufinefs of fuch high importance, they ought not to fet afide all party prejudices, and debate the question upon its own merits, with an intention of forming a clofe and permanent union between the two countries, for only by the moft close and indiffoluble connexion with Britain can Ireland hope to exift one moment as a proteftant ftate. The prefent is the moment at which this desirable connexion can be formed, and therefore, in debating the queftion, gentlemen should make it a principal object of their attention. Mr. Forbes. I hope I need not fay that no man in the houfe is farther from purfuing party views or private emolument than I am. I propofed the amendment in order to keep the people quiet, that they might confide in their parliament, that they might fee parliament was attentive to their interefts; and feeing this, think their own exertions unneceffary. Mr. Secretary of State. I rife only to obferve, that the method propofed by the honourable gentleman is a very odd method for quieting alarms. The honourable gentleman has faid, that an alarm has gone abroad, and he propofes the Hib. Mag. Oct. 1786. that is, by convincing the people that their reprewords of the amendment to quiet the alarm, fentatives are extremely alarmed the people are to become on the fudden extremely quiet. Gentlemen speak of the conftitution as invaded by the refolutions; but they fhould recollect the unanimity of the laft commons in afferting the conftitution, and they fhould not fuppofe that the present would be backward in following the great example, fhould a proper occafion demand their exertion; but there is no probability of any fuch occafion arifing; and it is plain that the prefent motion, notwithstanding the glofs that is thrown upon it, is only intended to alarm and difquiet the people. Mr. Browne, (of the College.) The restoration of our conftitution in 1782 was called for by the voice of the people, but the prefent adjuftment originated from the infidious policy of Britain; who, fince that period, has been jealous of our independence and growing profperity. Mr. Secretary of State. I think it neceffary to move to expunge the words in the motion, as they tender the conflitutional and commercial rights of Ireland. Mr. Mafon. I rife to make a fhort remark on what the honourable gentleman has faid. He forgets that the commercial arrangement was called for by the addrefs of this house, moved by an honourable gentleman near me, (Mr. Griffith) at the clofe of the laft feffion of parliament. Mr. Griffith. The honourable gentleman has anticipated me. I rose to say that it was brought forward in confequence of an address which I had the honour of moving. An honourable General has faid, that if we pass this amendment we call not upon thofe who do not tender the commercial conftitutional rights of Ireland. I agree with the honourable General, and I fhould upon all occafions be very glad of their abfence. It has been faid that this amendment will alarm the people-I wish not to alarm them, but I wish to fee them attentive to their rights, and I would have them know that we confider the British resolutions as trenching on the conftituti. on, and annihilating the commerce of this kingdom. General Luttrell. I rife to explain. My idea is, that if we pafs this amendment, any member who is abfent, fuppofe at Bath for his health, and who relies on the integrity of parliament, would not believe that any idea of infringing the commercial or conftitutional rights of this country existed any where except in the hot brain of perfons who could propofe or support fuch an amendment. Such a member, I fay, would not think his prefence neceffary; therefore it is wrong to call only upon perfons who think the conftitution or commerce in danger. Every member fhould be called, and the future authority of the Speaker should not be weakened by reforting to fuch extravagant expreffions, when there is no urgent occafion. Mr. Molineux. I am against the amendment, because it carries with it an infinuation that members do not attend their duty now without great reafons. 222 The Queftion put-paffed in the negative. The main queftion was then carried. When the Houfe met again on the 30th of June, the propofitions not being returned, another adjournment was moved for, by Mr. Secretary Orde until July the 19th, which produced the following debate: The Right Hon. H. L. Rowley. I am very willing to adjourn the difcuffion of the commercial fyftem, as I think a fubject of fo much importance cannot receive too much confideration; And that we may not be urged to adopt in bafte refolutions which we shall have ample caute to repent at leisure, I will make an amendment to the motion of the right honourable gentleman, by adding," and that an address be presented to his Grace the Lord Lieutenant, that he will ap ply to his Majefty to put an end to the lesion by prorogation.' Mr. Speaker informed Mr. Rowley that the queftion of adjournment must take place of any motion for an addref. Mr. Rowley. Well, then I will move, "that this houfe do adjourn to the first of Jan. next." Mr. Speaker declared himself ready to put the queftion, on the amendment propofed. Sir Lucius O'Brien I think, as the commercial fyftem has taken a form fo very different from that which it wore when it left Ireland, it requires a very clofe examination at its return, and I look upon every man in the nation as call ed upon to inspect it narrowly, I can fee no advantage likely to arife from a prorogation, as feveral bills of very great importance to the trade and manufactures of the kingdom, (particularly thofe for giving bounties on leveral fpecies of goods) are actually in their progrefs before both houses, and ought to be ready the next tranfmifs, as the want of them keeps the people concerned from pursuing their different branches of manufacture. net for want of numbers or powers to have car ried it in the shape it went from hence: But I entreat time to confider it; for if, as it shall ap pear to be a fair, equitable, honourable system, the more it is confidered the more it will redound to the reputation of thote from whom it origiaates; if it comes unhurt out of the ordeal fire, the more it will be for the peace and happiness of both countries; and as I am fure the peace and happiness of both countries is the sole objec of the Noble Duke who fo worthily governs this, I beg that time may be allowed to have the fyl tem fully understood by the people; for if the people do not underftand it, they will fufpect it, be it ever fo good, and confequently the ends of peace and happiness will be so far fruftrated. The changes that have already been madé have given caufe for fufpicion. Eleven propofitions left this country; in the British Houle of Com mons they have multiplied into twenty, and for aught we know may be three and thirty before they come back again. Mr. Secretary Orde. The right honourable gentleman, whom I always hear with the utmost refpect, furely does himself the greatest injustice in laying, that what he offers will have little avail with adminiftration. He will, I am fure, do minifters the juftice to say, that they are always ready to attend to his opinion with very high deference; for me, I am very much obliged to him for what he has faid, becaufe he recommends patience, temper, and deliberation; in this I agree with him, and hope in this way to profit by the adjournment. I think the right honourable gentleman has thrown out a fufficient reafon for an adjournment; he has laid there have been alterations, and there may ftill be further alterations made in the propofitions-I agree with him; and as it is impoffible to form any opinion of the fyftem until we have the whole before us, the adjourn ment is neceffary; and at our next meeting we may, after a full confideration, form an united fyftem. If it were not fomething foreign to the fabject I should fay a word concerning their intreduction in England; but taking the hint from the right honourable gentleman, I think that will be better made a part of our future deliberati ons. Mr. Conolly. I am ready to agree with the right hon. gentleman, in good humour; but in cafes of very great importance, like this, fome one ought to be at the maft head and look out; and I will fay that the honour of every man who had any thing to do with the introduction of these commercial, propofitions, is called upon to fee that this country thall not receive any injury in confequence of them. Mr. Conolly, I do not fatter myself that any advice I shall give to adminiftration will be of the fmalleft avail; but I intreat them that they will give as much time as poffible for a fettlement which is to be final between a fuperior and an inferior country-fuperior, I fay, in trade, fuperior in experience, and fuperior in politics. This Sir Henry, Cavendish. Not only fome ode country is rifing faft in trade, and in order to ought to be at the malt head to look out, bet prevent for ever any commercial jealouly, and every man ought to ftand upon the highest p 10 unite it in the most firm bands with Greatnacle, from whence he beft could view the preBritain, in order to dove-tail and render its union indiffoluble, a commercial fyftem has been propofed, which was to fair and equitable that it captivated the heart of every man who heard it. What changes were made on the other fide I will not fay, but I fuppofe they were made upon viction, by the confent of the minifter, and fent tranfaction between the two nations. There can be but one fentiment upon the fubject: If the twenty refolutions are fent to Ireland materially altered, it is impoffible for the prefent adminiftration, or any adminiftration, to bring them forward in parliament-they would not dare to do it. There is not an Englithog nor an Irishesa 1786. Irifb Parliamentary Intelligence. Irishman that would dare to do it; and if there should, he would not find another bafe enough to fecond him. The house would rife indignant, the contest would be, who should first move a question of expulfion on the man that would dare to give a vital ftab to the legislative independence of Ireland. Sir, it is an awful moment-the legiflative independence of Ireland is in queftion and if it be not guarded now, it will be loft for ever. vote for the adjournment. Mr. Kearney. I greatly approve of that part of the right honourable gentleman (Mr. Orde's) Speech, which recommends patience, temper and deliberation, but I cannot think a fortnight's adjournment is fufficient for fuch deliberation as the fubject requires; and though every man ought to abandon private intereft upon this great national occafion, yet I fear very great inconvenience will arife to gentlemen who may be under indifpenfable engagements to attend at the af fizes, I am therefore for having the bufinefs of the commercial adjustment lie over to the next feffion. $.47 it was to confider what was proper to do on such an important bufinefs; for till the propofitions come over we cannot determine whether it will be proper to difcufs them, or delay the difcuffion. Mr. Forbes. I then hope the right hon. gen tleman will not prefs any refolutions, except the eleven which originally went from this kingdom; for if he does, and they shall be found not to be the sense of the people, they cannot ftand. Nay, even as they went from hence they could not be called the measure of the people, for the people begged in vain to have time to confider them. Why were his eleven refolutions treated with contempt in England? because they were got the sense of the people of Ireland. The people had not been allowed time to difcufs them, and their interference on the subject had been difcouraged. What was the caufe of the fuccefs of the repres fentations of this house in 1779, 1780, and 1782? They were mealures of the people: Now we are told we fhall have time enough to confider, but we are not told that the difcuffion fhall be postponed till next seffion; that is, we are to be mocked with a parade of fubmitting to the dif Mr. Godfrey Greene. I am for the adjourn-cuffion of the people the propofitions which may ment, in order to have an opportunity of difcuffing the refolutions; and upon this principle, that I am convinced none will be fent over that are not for the mutual advantage of both countries. 140,000l. in taxes have this year been Jaid upon the fubject, under a fuppofition that the commercial fyftem would be adopted, and enable us to fupport the burden; I therefore thought that no delay ought to be given to the carrying that fyftem into effect. I beg to remind she house that it is impoffible to fay how long any miniftry in England may ftand, even the integrity of the prefent is no lecurity for their continuance; and it is a fact notorious in Ireland, that the people at present in oppofition have ever been the decided enemies of our conftitutional and commercial rights; if once they were to get into power, we might bid farewel to every hope of a just and equitable fettlement. Hon. D. Browne. I am for the adjournment; for though I have already declared that I never would aid the desperate faction in England, yet as the fyftem tranfmitted from this country has been fo effentially altered, great deliberation is become neceffary. Mr. Forbes. If I do not mistake the motion of the right hon. gentleman, it is, that the house fhall, at its rifing, adjourn till Tuesday fe'nnight. On the last day of our meeting I moved a call of the house, to take place this day; and I would now move to adjourn that call to our next day of meeting, and endeavour to force the attendance of gentlemen. But I would first wifh to have feme reafon affigned for calling them from their homes at this very advanced period of the feafon. I would therefore afk the motives which induce the right honourable gentleman to prolong -the feffion fo very much. But he has said, it is to confider the fyftem of commercial arrange ment that may be returned from England. He will tell me, whether it is not alfo to decide upon that system-As he is filent, I fuppofe he rmeans to decide upon it. Mr. Secretary Orde. I beg the honourable gentleman will not fo conftrue my words. I said come over; but when are we to difcufs? Why in the months of Auguft and September, when it will be impoffible to procure full affemblies, or council to attend at your bar; when most of the members will be abfent; and because of the alfizes moft of the lawyers in the houfe will be obliged to be away, or from their business, be unable to give the requifite confideration. This will be indeed but affectation of a deference to the fenfe of the people, befides, it will be impoffible for the people immediately to understand the full extent and fcope of the propofitions which may come: for, it with every advantage of knowledge, information, and experience, it has cott the parliament of England five months to underfland them, how can it be supposed that the people of Ireland, lefs informed and less experienced, will understand them at firft? I do therefore hope that the right hon. gentleman will now rife and declare that it is not his intention to prefs them forward this feffion, but that he will comply with the petitions of the people, and allow time for due deliberation. I am forry I do not hear the right hon. Secretary reprobate the twenty propofitions, in the Itate they now are: And fuch is their state, that I will be bold to fay, that whoever approves them abdicates thereby the truft repoled in him by the people.-But it is faid, we thould wait till we know what these propositions will be at last.Would any gentleman act thus in private life? When an insult is offered to his honour, will be wait to feel whether it will be aggravated or not? Will he not rather fpiritedly reprobate the first isfuit, and not tamely wait for an addition to it? It is certainly the duty of every member of this house to deliver his fentiments on this occafion, and exprefs his resenument; and as an individual should exprefs his refentment against even an attempt to violate his honour, fo a great affembly or a nation ought to express their indignation against any mealure which could be conftrued even to have a tendency to infringe on their dignity or independence. When gentlemen allude to alterations to be made, they infinuate that 2222 ther they must be favourable, though I know of none which can even require confirmation but what reftores the eleven original propofitions as fent over, and even thofe would require great difcuffion. Certainly every member holding a decided language would be the best means of effecting fuch alterations. I feel the house and country degraded, when I recollect that the refump tion of the power of England to legiflate externally for cland has even been a fubject of difcuffion in the English parliament; but much more io, when I find it questionable, whether an alteration was to be made in the English lords, of the propofitions that tended to refume that power. I fhall move that the house be called over on the day on which they are to meet after the adjourn ment. Mr. Moore. The amendment implies a con tradiction, for if the house should adjourn to January it would preclude the propofitions coming before us, and confequently deprive us of the knowledge whether fuch adjournment is neceffary or not. As to the call of the house I doubt whether that is neceffary, for upon great occafions this nation is not fo fupine as to require that its reprefentatives fhould be called upon to guard its rights and interests. Mr. Conolly. I rife to fuggeft, that should the refolutions of the British parliament be laid before the house on Tuesday fortnight, it might then be proper to move a question, whether they fhould be ditcuffed this feffion or not? That quel tion I will move, and if it fhould be carried in the affirmative, a motion for a call of the house may then be necessary. Mr. Curran. I can eafily excufe fome inconfiftencies in the conduct of the right honourable Secretary, for fome accidents have befallen him: When we met laft, he defired us to adjourn for three weeks; we did fo, and now he wants above fortnight more-but will that help forward the bufinefs before the houfe? Will it expedite the progress of a bill, to fay, let us wait till the packet comes in from England, and perhaps we hall have fome news about the propofitions.Did the British minifter act in this manner? No; when he postponed from time to time the confideration of the propofitions, he did not poftpone the other bufinets of the houfe: He did not fay, let it wait till the packet comes from Dublin. This the Irish minifter is forced to do: 1 fay forced, for I am fure it is not his inclination; it mult diftrels him greatly; and I fincerely feel, and pity his diftrefs. : When we had the eleven propofitions before us, we were charmed with them. Yes, the endea:ing word reciprocity rang at every corner of the ftreets. We then thought that the right honourable gentleman laid the propofitions before us by authority but the English minifter reprobated them as foon as they got to England, and the whole nation reprobates, them: Thus, on one hand, we must conclude, the English minifter tells the Irish minifter to propofe an adjustment, and when it goes back, alters every part; or that, the Irith minifter propofed it without any authority at all. I am inclined to believe the batter, for it would add to the gentleman's d.f trefs to fuppofe the former; Now let us mark another inconfiftency into which the right hon. gentleman is driven-10 doubt against his will. Time to deliberate was refused us, when we had something to deliberate upon; and now, when we are told we have nothing before us to confider, we are to have a fortnight's recefs, to enable us to think a bout nothing; and time indeed it will take before we can think to any purpose. It will take time for the propofitions to go through, and perhaps to be again altered in the house of lords: It will take time for them to be reconsidered in the British commons. It will take time for them to come over here-It will take time for us to reconfider them, though that time is likely to be very fhort-It will take time to fend them back to England-It will take time for them to be returned to us again; and then time will be required to carry them into execution. But a rumour hath gone abroad of a studied defign to delay the discussion of the business till there fhall be no members in town: But away with such a fufpicion; I think too honourable of the right hon. gentleman; but yet I fhould be glad to hear him fay, there is not, even in idea, the base defign of forcing them down our throat. However, I am against any adjournment that may retard the bufinefs that is in train in the houfe; for I think it would be beft that we fhould continue to fit: For, I am fure, the beft preparation for difcuffing the final adjustment will be to clear our hands of all other business before it comes back to us. I hope the right hon. gentleman will let the bufinefs of the nati on go on; if not, let the house shew a due re gard to itfelf, and go on without him. Mr. Corry. I have had the honour this day to lay before the house a petition from the merchants of the commercial town of Newry. Some other petitions have been prefented to-day, and there are many more in their progrefs; nay, fome of them are actually in the house, though an opportunity has not offered to prefent them. They all concur in the mildest and most respectful terms, in one request, which is to delay the dif cuffion of the propofitions till next feffion. So that the question is properly before the house, whether that delay will be granted to the united prayer of the petitions or not-The language which hath this day fallen from the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Orde) admits of two conftructions; one, that it is the intention of ministry to force on the difcuffion and decifion of the adjustment this feffion: And the other, that, whether that is or is not to be the cafe, is to remain doubtful and uncertain; I take the former sense to be that intended, fince, if the latter is to be taken, it would impute to the author a conduct whieh can be described no otherwise than as mean, un candid, and infidious, calculated to flacken the exertions of the country on a matter on which they are now alive and anxious in the extreme, and to deter the members of this house, already harraffed with fruitless journies from their feve ral counties, from appearing then in their places, a conduct I will not impute. But fuppofe the going on with the adjuftinent to be announcedHow directly will that be against the opinion of the country may be fully known, even already, from the petitions of mercantile towns, now on ske table, and thofe already forwarded, though |